The issue of Abortion in accordance to Christian beliefs

uh...the title of the article.

You are aware that criminalizing abortion does not equal zero abortions, right? If a falling abortion rate is no tribute to mankind, and all you want is zero abortions, give me a regulatory regime that works for that. Stalinism on pro-life wheels?

Lest we forget, pre-Roe v. Wade, hundreds of women died from unsafe abortion practices, and millions of illegal abortions took place.

 

Thinks are so simple when you don't look past the nose... and see the other life involved.

 

NO, things are simple when I see someone trying to put their nose in another person's uterus without their consent (with consent, whatever creams your twinkie).

 

It's like some people have never even watched Dirty Dancing.

 

Not sure what your point is. I have no issue with birth control. Anything that prevents unwanted pregnancy is great. Killing off your mistakes, though, is no humane solution.

 

I'm going to give you credit for taking an absolutist but philosophically consistent position that said I think you need to consider something about rape. First off while your concern for what you consider a life might override your concern over the suffering over the raped women an absolutists position in this case might not be helping either. A pregnancy is seen as a blessing when it is wanted but when not it is often seen as a burden but to a victim of a rape it is a curse and a reminder of the that horrible assault that the victim is forced to carry along to term. That is also only in the best of cases and when you consider that pregnancy itself also is fraught with complications now add that onto the physical and emotional damage that can occur from a rape and forcing a rape victim to carry to term could lead to a whole host of problems that the woman and her family has to endure for possibly the rest of her life.

Considering the psychological damage that rape inflicts to a woman. To the pain of being forced to deal with the reminder of that might just drive her to seek out an abortion whether legal or not. Under a system where abortion is completely outlawed the only solution is illegal which then puts her at risk under blackmarket medicine. Even if the woman doesn't get an abortion the psychological damage that she carries might never allow her to fully bond with her child, show love to it and causing more problems.

Finally you have to consider that rape isn't always a crime that strikes adult independent women. Consider a situation where a 12 year old is is raped and gets pregnant. First off very young pregnancies are physically risky but next consider the stigma that that girl is going to have to live with suicide being one of the leading causes of death among teenagers being forced to carry a pregnancy might just drive a teenager to kill both herself and end pregnancy anyway. At the minimum given that there are cases of teenagers abandoning newborns in dumpsters teenagers will still seek to end terminate pregnancies even if abortion is outlawed.

 

That is the kind of extremist rhetoric that actually makes it harder to find solutions. All you are basing your argument on is moralizing and shame which in case you haven't noticed doesn't sway those on the other side but just hardens positions.

 

Criminalizing abortion might make abortion rates fall slightly, but it's going nowhere near to zero. Hell, a more effective solution for reduced abortions would be increased contraceptives. People always assume criminalization works so well---look at the war on drugs. Tell me how that's turning out.

Given that there are more effective policy points, the Supreme Court has ruled over and over again that heavy-handed government intervention in what should be a very private affair is not worth the trade off of violations to privacy and the 14th Amendment until an agreed-upon age of viability. The question of Roe v. Wade is not "dur, is abortion good or bad?". It is at what point government intervention that overrides the individual right to privacy is worth the trade-off.

I understand the rash impulse to "ban bad things". But like you said yourself, that is the lowest form of problem-solving.

 

This is the weakest of all arguments on this issue. The social compact is all about the imposition of the mortality of others on you. If my morality were to be that it is ok to sell heroin to the third grader down the street, it being illegal is the imposition of somebody else's moraliy on me. Likewise, if my morality tells me that it is ok to call somebody every night at three in the morning because they owe me a debt, it is the imposition of somebody else's mortality on me that I cannot do so.

The much better argument is one of public safety. Abortions are going to happen whether legal or not. I fear for the lives of the mothers. I do not believe that one should die because of a desperate act.

That being said, I hate abortion. I am not going to pretend I have all the answers.

 

Regardless of the moral implications of abortion, outlawing it is absolutely stupid. When abortion goes underground, it is INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS.

 

You are not going to "sway" everyone. I don't like the playful language which some use to disguise what is really going on. Calling it all about choice and a woman's control over her own body is just the start.

Crafting definitions which seek to put off a recognition of a human life is but another-- nothing else ever results unless nature ends things.

Just calling it what it is-- a killing. Not all killing is wrong. I'd kill an intruder who came to do harm but that doesn't not describe a newly conceived child.

My entire argument is based on the life of the child, period. Yes, I'll cut through the crap which attempts to disguise what is really going on. Continuing to just call her a "choice" will never go anywhere except further backwards on the scale of humanity.

 

Very clever move but that is not what I said nor what I meant. I was talking about killing unwanted children not banning abortion.

I understand your over-arching point though. What would we do with millions of more unwanted children? That's a tough one and not an easy problem to solve. That still gives us no right to just off them.

To begin, we need to have more sexually responsible behavior on the part of people which includes taking responsibility for any life that you create... whether you raise him/her yourself or give him/her up for adoption.

Yes, I'm a ~Christian but my kids grow up in a very libertine environment in terms of entertainment and conversation. As I've said many times, I was pro-Life before I ever re-darkened the door of a church after being away for more than 20 years. For me, it's not really a religious issue as much as a humane one.

 

This one would hold water if your analogy was a woman selling heroin to the joints in her ankles

If the woman wants to call her pancreas repeatedly to collect a debt, she is free to do so, as far as I am concerned.

As far as the "social compact," I will agree that murder, rape, robbery, and MANY other crimes belong in it. Abortion is not part of that compact as far as I am concerned, I would say "compact" bans would be those supported by 90+% of the population.

Abortion, drugs, gambling, and prostitution shouldn't be banned.

 

can't be sexually responsible unless you know what sex is, and what tools you need to use. my two cents on that point.

Getting back to the overarching point...Roe v. Wade is not by definition a debate on the merits of abortions, it is a debate on how to manage abortions, and if you can look at it that way, everything will go a bit smoother.

 

I don't know anyone that likes abortion, Refman. I know a few women who have had one, and not one of them "enjoyed" the experience. And those weren't women who had been raped, something giddy and juicystream believe is an option a raped woman should not have. So I was curious... How do you feel about that aspect of this topic? I usually avoid abortion threads, finding it damn near impossible to have a reasonable discussion about the subject when those like giddy immediately dominate the thread with their extremist dogma. So I can't recall. I apologize in advance if this is something I should know and have forgotten.

 

You are moving the goal posts here. You stated that somebody should not force their morals on other people. I pointed out that it happens everyday.

Would it be a better analogy for you if I suggested that my morality says it is ok to run a tattoo parlor for the local high school kids, but society says they have to be 18 or 21?

 

As much as my religious teachings tell me that abortion is always wrong, I just cannot tell a woman who has been violated in such a manner that she has to carry the result of that violation in her and then give birth to it. To add to the problem, I cannot tell her that she would then have to decide whether to raise that child ( a constant reminder of the attack) or put the child up for adoption. At that point, she may also be fearful of the nature vs. nurture question. Would that child be violent due to genetics, or was the attacker that way because of environmental factors?

There are a number of levels to that question, and all of them lead me to the same place. I cannot tell a woman that she has to suffer such profound lasting consequences of being violated against her will.

 

So you just want the pro-Life crowd to surrender?!? Laws can be and have been changed before...

 

Just so ya know... that is not my position. With some regret, I've come to grips years ago with the abortion option in the case of rape, but the fact of the matter is that the child is still entirely 100% innocent of any wrong-doing whatsoever and is being made to pay the ultimate price.

What a hero would the woman be who could birth that child...

 

History will not look back kindly on the abortion era...