[Kickstarter] Project Eternity by Obsidian (Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Planescape, etc.)

Kind of hard to make a game like Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Planescape Torment, etc., if you don't go isometric.

Plus, for what they want to do, I don't really see any problems with isometric (and I would see big problems if they went a different route).

I'm not sure if Kickstarter themselves will actually sue them, but I'm sure something like that would happen. You certainly run the risk of that happening, although what's much more likely is they release a game, but it is a unpolished piece of crap, barely resembling a game. Can't really do anything about that (Obsidian only promised a game, not a good game).

Kickstarter tends to be more involved in approving projects, and making sure these guys have a plan to actually deliver what they're promising.

I wouldn't really worry about that happening here. Perhaps a delay, but Obsidian will definitely deliver a game. I think they want to do this just as much as their fans (already planning expansions/sequels, which will NOT be crowdfunded).

And while it is a long time, keep in mind you're getting a pretty good discount. You won't get it this cheaply when the game is released, nor would you get some of the goodies. Of course, it also helps them raise more money so the game ends up better too. And unlike traditional games (with publishers screwing things up), these guys will likely put out tons of updates during development, which might make things better (I've been overloaded with updates from all the other projects I've backed...lots of cool stuff). Plus, I suppose they'd have an alpha/beta available much sooner, if you want to check that out (I'm debating whether I want to do that with a game like this).

The money is transferred at the end of the project's funding deadline, which is usually 30-45 days out from when it first gets posted. In this case, it is 5 days out. This is only done if the project meets its funding goal.

 

Can't manage parties (let alone other gameplay elements) in a system like Skyrim or Dark Souls. And wouldn't use recent history or BioWare games as a good reason for why isometric isn't used much (publishers are involved, remember).

I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of 3D overhead system (ala NWN I guess), but isometric has it's advantages too. Certainly get some pretty, prerendered backgrounds with this.

 

Immersion isn't what they're going for in this game (or not that kind anyway). Like I said, they want to add more focus on strategic/tactical gameplay (and guess what perspective a lot of strategy games use, even to this day?).

It is a trade-off, and depending on how you're designing your game (i.e., what elements are you going to push?), you pick what works best. More camera control and new gameplay mechanics don't really matter if 98% of gameplay will be the same (i.e., zoomed out and just issuing orders to characters). Plus, as I hinted at earlier, it takes a lot more work to do that, and you can end up with something that doesn't look all that great (e.g., horrible visuals in Dragon Age, which certainly didn't help with immersion).

For the type of game this is and for the expected budget, I think isometric is definitely one of the best options, if not the best. If they had $40M+, perhaps they could improve on this all with a type of 3D system (overhead for battle, close-ups for cutscenes/whatever). But that's a lot of money and time to spend on something that wouldn't really make a huge difference IMO. People are wanting this game for the deep tactical gameplay, the massive amount of content, huge world, tons of writing (and keep in mind fans have requested a bigger script instead of something like voiceover), etc. Not so they can move apples on a table. All of those things can be accomplished with isometric, and it wouldn't make the budget skyrocket to some unobtainable amount.

If they were going for a deeply immersive experience, driven by strong cutscenes and actor performance, etc., then maybe I'd agree that isometric wouldn't be a good fit for this.

edit: You could make similar arguments for something like 2D adventure games I'd think.

 

morpheus133 already answered this, but I think some wires got crossed (maybe due to the conversation Dei and I were having). This game is definitely going to be isometric. See the screenshot Yonkers posted....or this fan GIF of the screen:

Probably won't look too far off from that (other than being much better).

 

I agree that this type of 3D could work, and I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it. It would be the only other system I'd really like since it shouldn't compromise things like gameplay (though I'd worry a bit about camera manipulation since that could be unwieldy at times). Dark Souls/Skyrim/Mass Effect/etc. style won't work though.

IMO, 3D is nice, but doesn't really offer that much more than 2D isometric, at least in this kind of game (if it was in 3D, you'd still be in a isometric-style view for most of the game anyway).

But even though 3D could work, there would be trade-offs. Visuals, for one, would not look nearly as nice. For example, I'd prefer this:

Over this:

Spoiler

"**** mountain" (as dubbed by fans) isn't really doing much to help immerse me into this world. And Bioware definitely spent MUCH more on this crap than what Obsidian will spend on Eternity (and things like writing might actually be good in Eternity!).

3D simply costs a lot more. And good 3D costs substantially more. The payoff isn't worth it IMO, especially since you have to acknowledge the fact that going 3D will result in something else being cut. This reminds me about the feedback these Kickstarter projects have been getting from fans. Would you want us to add voice-overs (i.e., improve immersion), or would you want us to add more dialogue (i.e., more content)? Fans have overwhelming requested the latter. I'm sure they'd like both, but the added immersion from VA doesn't make-up for the loss in content. That's something that some developers haven't quite figured out...or perhaps publishers are more to blame.

Given the choice, I'd pick isometric (the view I'd be in 98% of the time even if it was 3D) + tons of content + pretty art over the alternative (ugly 3D, less content, etc.). Perhaps 3D would be appealing, but I'd think having all this great content would be more appealing.

Agreed.

 

I agree. Though I don't think those features are really worth implementing in this case.

I guess the only point I want to make is that I really don't see how you lose all that much with isometric, especially when that perspective is ideal (or...at worst, the 2nd best option) for the main components of a game like this. The features are good, but not deal-breakers if they're not present (again, I couldn't care less that I won't be able to pick up an apple on some table and throw it across a room). It might be better with 3D (if everything is done right and budgets didn't matter), but far from horrible. And as I mentioned, with isometric, you'd get some advantages (easier to control parties, better visuals, etc.).

Maybe just agree to disagree here.

Depends on implementation and artstyle. Pure 2D (as in drawn art) can be more expensive. You have to draw out all the animations and things like that. That can certainly be costly and time consuming, especially if the artists aren't cheap.

In this case of Project Eternity, I believe we have 2D perspective, but actual 3D assets. Just taking 3D renders and using them as prerendered backgrounds. 3D models for characters/enemies/items/etc. too I imagine. The process will likely be very similar to a 3D game actually, at least in terms of asset creation. Actually, I guess you could have everything rendered in real-time if you want, just fix the camera. You don't have to model/animate certain things since they'll never be seen. Reduces the workload quite a bit. Certainly won't be very demanding either I imagine, and little need for hardware optimization. Being able to do this in Unity helps too (don't need an expensive engine to help produce a high quality 3D system). Don't have actual experience doing any of this, but that seems to make sense to me, and I believe these guys have stated similar things in the past. I might be remembering wrong though. I'd think given the budgets, they'd go with the system that would produce the best bang for the buck.

Also, Obsidian hasn't quite been known for pretty visuals either, yet plenty of people seem to love the screen they put out (and this is with a game in pre-production and with a small budget).

You're right that the analogy isn't the best (though I'd say VA is more about presentation style rather than actual content...I'd say the actual script/dialogue is the content). And while subjective, I'd say that's primarily due the trade-offs involved in VA. People tend to not like it because the VA sucks, the VA results in less dialogue/less branching paths, no more descriptions of areas (remember the written descriptions of areas in the Infinity Engine games?), etc. Maybe just me, but if all else was equal, I'd see nothing wrong with adding quality VA to a game (and, in fact, strong performances can definitely help a game, especially in conveying emotion). That's unrealistic because by adding VA, you have to do things like cut dialogue and all that (or add a lot of $$$ to the budget), but if you could somehow keep that, I think the experience could be better. If we could get Nolan North to voice every written line in Project Eternity, everyone should be happy.

But most are aware of the fact that, while VA is nice, implementing it isn't worth the trade-offs. They'd prefer more dialogue, more complex branches, etc., over Nolan North.

That's mostly my opinion I admit, but I'd think most would agree. Correct me if wrong.

(also, I might have taken that example from Wasteland 2, which I sometimes mix up with Project Eternity, although I believe Project Eternity is following the same model)

edit: On a side-note, I really need to start repping posters in other threads. I keep trying to rep posters contributing to threads like this, and I always get that "You must spread some Reputation around" message. I appreciate everyone who contributes to threads like this. Love talking about stuff like this.