Maine mayor: 'Somalis should leave culture at door'

[circle jerk meme]

 

Interesting.

As someone who has adapted to American culture and become naturalized, I can tell you that it's extremely difficult. I think a major factor is how connected someone is to the community that perpetuates their home culture. I was purposely disconnected. Even then, learning which one of my cultural values to abandon and which American ones to adopt was a challenging emotional journey. The entire deal took 12 years, from when we arrived to when I felt "American."

Now, we were well-to-do and without cultural or religious pressure to conform. I can only imagine how difficult it is for Somalian refugees without these very important advantages. So, if you hold the viewpoint that "I dont see what the problem is, you already have more than you did back home. you should behave like us," then you're underestimating how truly difficult assimilation is.

Should culture A attempt to assimilate into culture B when living in country B? yes. Whether it's Somalians coming to America, or Americans going to Somalia, if you go to someone's house, you play by their rules (to the extent possible).

But the host has to make some concessions also. Somalians didn't drop from the sky into Maine, the government made their arrival possible. When you invite someone, you should recognize they bring some baggage (not necessarily negative).

To say "leave it at the door" connotates that I know better than you do which of your values are valid and which ones aren't. Not only is that condescending, but it's also pure BS. Bring your culture, but also come with an open mind and respect local laws. Changing the culture of an immigrant culture, or advocating the adoption of values is a negotiation between the local authority and a respected immigrant cultural leader. He/she has to be your spokesperson and advocate. Imposition will be seen as an attack and congeal the immigrant group.

that was first question.

second question:

prostitution and gang violence are clearly illegal, but also clearly not unique to Somalian groups. your question is a little loaded: "are the Somali crime gangs becoming as big a problem in the USA, as they are in their other adopted countries?" This assumes it's already a big problem.

ATW's quote says that rates of offending for Somali people is "6141.8 per 100,000" in Australia (you left that out ATW! Context is U.S.). I'll assume the rate is annual, and assume the rate is the same in the United States.

The 2010 Census says "there are approximately 85,700 people with Somali ancestry in the US (link).

Do a little bit of math and you get 5263.5 offenses.
Total number of crimes reported in the US in 2010: 10,329,135 (FBI Report).
Theoretical contribution of Somalian criminals to total crime rate: 0.051%

So no, it's not a big problem. It's a very visible, small problem.

if you're looking for the trouble makers:

Now, if the US Somalian population does have a higher rate of crime per-capita than other cultural groups (we don't really know if this is true), then it is a good idea to approach the cultural leaders and solicit their help to improve the situation.


ALSO -- why in the hell would you put Somalians in some of the coldest places in the country? there's already enough challenges to adjusting to a new country without having 10 feet of snow dumped on your head.

 

Let's break this down, shall we...

We have a story about a Mayor who has said these things:

Then you have IzakDavid13 pose this question to the board:

So now IzakDavid13 has set these paramaters to the discussion, which doesn't at all jive with what is really happening. Show me where the remarks of this Mayor come off anywhere as toothless and harmless as the way IzakDavid states it; "immigrants should do more to adapt and assimilate into the American culture, (whilst still being able to freely practice their religion)."

Where, does anybody make the counter argument that Americans "need to adapt and change their way of life and culture to accommodate the immigrants way of life?"

You are either blind of full of S**T if you don't see how he's rigged the game here. He's completely toned down the opinion of the Mayor and then set up a strawman that is extremely radical as the counterpoint. Where are these calls for Americans needing to adapt to Somali culture?


Then the Cherry on top is his posting of stories of Somalis committing crimes in the US, because that is apparently the only outcome of people who don't "leave their culture at the door."

Leaving your culture at the door is pretty damn un-American, actually. This whole country has all kinds of enclaves, some new, some historic. New York is the obvious example of a city made up of enclaves where people have held on to their ancestral culture.

Even here in Texas, you have entire towns that are made up of Polish and German immigrants and their ancestors.

Speaking of Germans, let's look back at the story of the Somali's going back to join a terrorist organization in Somalia. Do you think they did it because of anti-american sentiment, or because of what's going on in Somalia? During WWII, German immigrants and German Americans went to Germany to fight for the Nazi's. Should we have forced Germans to leave their culture at the door? Can we trust these Germans today?

 

You should post more often. Repped.

 

If we're talking about CULTURE and not about religion, I don't disagree that it would be better to leave their (or anyone's) culture at the door. I do disagree that it should be required or expected. Edit: I do strongly disagree that people should exchange their culture for another, even if it is of their host country.

Overall, I think culture is far more devastating to human development. Any religion on its own includes within itself the principle for human development. Culture is the exact opposite of development, it's the idea that someone should prefer past practices and the outcome will be identical to the past. In reality we should engage in the most updated practices according to our life which modern science and society have developed.

 

The hypothetical Australian Green Party hippies (???).

 

calm down. you should have just come out and said how you really feel about the Somalis instead of framing it around some sort of discussion on immigrants in America.

is there a non deoderant wearing queue pushing epidemic in Maine that I didn't know about?

it's "lose". l-o-s-e

no, I'm pretty sure everything you have posted in here does the labeling for you.

 

Your first response to my charge that you've demonstrated yourself to be a paranoid bigot is to talk about immigrants, welfare, and food stamps? Seriously?

I have a radical idea, why don't you learn some history. Do you think your line of logic is any different from what was posed to the Irish or the Italians or the Cubans or the Vietnamese or any other large influx of foreign peoples?

 

The irony is incredible.

 

I have never met any native Australian, and it is totally irrelevant. Me meeting them would not make their situation any different, nor would it make the rinsing out of their culture any less important. The fact that you meet with them to convince them to convert to your religion furthers my point if anything else, particularly given the role of missionaries in their catastrophic history.

Oh how difficult it must have been for you to adapt to subsidies from the government which at a snail's pace in 2012 is recognizing the impact of "immigration" on Australia and its native inhabitants. Do you think you adopted the host culture?

Do you think that the culture you expect Somalians to adapt to is the native culture? You say that native Australians are immigrants - are they more "immigrant" than the culture of the people who you are asking Somalians to adapt to? Do you think there is a single culture in the US or in your adopted Australia? In Iraq? Even within tiny countries of 1 million citizens, there are disputes and disagreements over culture.

Save it. If you have a problem with Somalians adaptability to their host culture, tell them to stay home and shut the door on immigration. There is a mutual benefit in accepting them into the country, and immigration would not happen if there wasn't. So just like the Irish and the French and the British and the various Africans had to muscle their way into the culture and fuse a better and more diverse culture, the Somalians will do the same.

As I said, it is a prejudiced position to slice a certain period of time and a certain nationality from history and draw conclusions about it. Have a memory longer than 10 years and you will see that this has nothing to specifically do with Somalians or their culture.

Perhaps if you were truly interested in harmonious lifestyle, you would ask yourself why these people's countries are in such terrible shape that mass immigration is so popular - lest you believe people don't give a **** about their own culture and country as long as they can go to America. Perhaps if you were really interested in harmony, you would be asking yourself how to solve their problems back home. Perhaps you would see what a disgusting practice it is to close your eyes to the reason for their circumstances, open the door to them and then attack them for not conforming to your fantastic perception of the homogenous host culture. Please, give us a break.

Oh and before you replay the broken record, no I am not interested in answering your questions anymore than I am interested in answering a terrorist's questions about conflict resolution.

 

Many Somali immigrants are my my neighbors in Minneapolis and my ex works with organizations helping Somali and Hmong immigrant communities with adapting to the US culture. If you believe that the Somali's aren't adapting the US then you know very little about them. Somalis are in general very hard working and in the about 20 years they have been here they have opened a lot of businesses, most know English, and many work in professional fields. That said the vast majority of them still wear traditional garb including (shocking) Hijabs and Niquabs, practice Islam and use their own language in conversation with themselves. That said in everything that matters for the most part they are assimilating to become productive members of the society.

Regarding the problem with the criminal sex ring this isn't part of their culture and unfortunately exploitation of women for prostitution is present in all ethnicities, this story though has to do with criminals in an immigrant group preying upon others in that group, unfortunately that isn't unusual and is something that happens among many immigrants groups. About ten years ago there was a similar situation with Hmong immigrants where Hmong girls were being lured and forced into prostitution by Hmong gangs.

As far as crimes among the Somali community in Minnesota though as a community are relatively low. Their are very few reports of Somalis murdering each other or others, with the exception being a horrific murder of 4 Somalis in a grocery store in my neighborhood by two Somali teenagers robbing the store.

Regarding the Al-Shabab situation the Somali community in general is against Al-Shabab and have many are speaking out against the recruitment of Somali youths and radicalization. Mothers of those who have been recruited by Al-Shabab to go fight in Somalia have publicly spoken out about how much pain this has caused to their families and community. What some might find interesting is that many of the Somalis in the US are actually taking US values back to Somalia and many in the new Somali government are from the refugee community in Minnesota and the Somali community here is heavily involved with improving things in Somalia.

The problems with the Somali community are pretty much the problems with any immigrant community adapting to a new country. It is no different than what the Italian, Polish, Hmong and etc.. went through. In many ways the Somalis have adapted more successfully than those communities.

 

I usually disagree with Izak and ATW when it comes to their views, but I see nothing wrong with what they've posted here. What the mayor of Maine said was clumsy and heavy handed, but more cultural transition programs are needed to prevent statistics like these.

 

statistics like what? that if you stand while pooping and wash your butt you will enter a Somali sex trafficking gang?

 

This article paints a very different picture from what you describe.

Minneapolis struggles with Somali gangs
Seven young men killed over 10 months; witnesses rarely step forward

MINNEAPOLIS — Ahmednur Ali's family fled the chaos and violence of their East African homeland Somalia in the 1990s, eventually making their way to Minnesota like thousands of their compatriots.
While many of the estimated 32,000 Somalis who settled in the state have struggled to adapt, Ali flourished. By age 20, he had blazed a path to Minneapolis' Augsburg College, where he played soccer, studied political science and aspired to a political career modeled on President Barack Obama's.
He was shot and killed last September outside a busy community center where he worked part-time as a youth counselor, and prosecutors said the 16-year-old accused of killing him was part of a gang.
Ali was one of seven Minneapolis-area Somali men killed over a 10-month period, and authorities believe all were killed by fellow Somalis. Police say it's too simple to tie all the killings to Somali gangs, which have lured hundreds of young community members to their ranks in recent years.
Those in the insular community willing to speak out, however, disagree.
"It was all gang activity, totally, 100 percent," said Shukri Adan, a former Somali community organizer who estimated in a 2007 report for the city that between 400 and 500 young Somalis were active in gangs. "The police don't want to say that but everybody else knows that."
Despite anger and despair over the killings in Minnesota's Somali community — the nation's largest — police and prosecutors have struggled to catch and try the killers. Few witnesses have stepped forward because of a fear of reprisal and deep-rooted distrust of authority. More than half of Minnesota's Somalis are living in poverty, according to state statistics, and many complain that authorities are biased against Somalis because of their Islamic faith.
Last month, prosecutors dropped the murder charge against the teenage boy in Ali's case after one witness backed out and another apparently fled the state.
Gangs like the Somali Hot Boyz, the Somali Mafia and Madhibaan with Attitude have grown more active in recent years, said Jeanine Brudenell, the Minneapolis Police Department's Somali liaison officer.
Killings since December 2007
The recent spate of killings started in December 2007, when two Somali men, ages 27 and 25, were found shot to death at a south Minneapolis home. No arrests have been made in that case.
They culminated last September, when a man was fatally shot outside of the Village Market Mall, a cluster of Somali-owned businesses and a popular destination for local Somalis. Investigators believe the shooter was retaliating for the death of his cousin, one of the other slain Somalis. The mall shooting was the only of the seven slayings for which anyone was convicted — 23-year-old Hassan Mohamed Abdillahi.

Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said he hoped the conviction would show local Somalis that the law is on their side, and spark new progress in closing the other cases. "We have a job to do to convince people they can trust us," he said.
A gang expert in California said economic and social factors are more likely to blame for the spike in gang activity than any spillover of violence from war-ravaged Somalia.
"When there's unemployment and poverty and lack of external support, there's gangs," said Jorja Leap, a social welfare professor at the University of California Los Angeles and former gang adviser to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.
Investigators in a separate criminal investigation have said they've also had trouble penetrating Minnesota's Somali community. The FBI is looking into the disappearance in recent years of up to 20 young Somali men, mostly from Minneapolis, believed to have been recruited into Islamist terror groups back in Somalia.
The first sign of progress in that investigation came this week with the indictment on terrorism charges of two young Somali men, at least one of whom is accused of traveling to Somalia to fight.
Somali gangs elsewhere growing
Elsewhere in the U.S. and Canada, police and community officials have reported an increase in Somali gang activity.
In and around Edmonton, Alberta, six young Somali men have been slain in the last six months. The leader of a small Somali outreach group there said the deaths are seen as evidence of a growing gang problem, and that they've led to better cooperation between Somalis and police.
"It seems like the community now is getting to the point where we are trying to give information to the police, and they are sharing information with us," said Mohamednur Mardowe, who heads the Brotherhood Community Support Service Association.
Police in Columbus, Ohio, which has the second-largest U.S. population of Somalis, have also seen growing evidence of Somali gangs, said Sgt. Chantay Boxill.
Ahmednur Ali's sister, Hindia Ali, said she hopes her fellow Somalis will stand up against the violence.
"I don't think any Somali person wants killing to continue," she said. "We all want this violence to stop."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3201047...neapolis-struggles-somali-gangs/#.UHMAbvd25fQ

 

Clannish behavior that prevents assimilation, strange foreign religious practices, a tendency towards violence and crime, and inability to adapt to advanced American culture, a tendency to continue breeding even while in poverty, an inability to communicate clearly in English, and a clear difference from the further evolved white European peoples native to this country, and a marked tendency for the women to end up involved in prostitution.

These things all describe immigrants.

They were things that newspapers said about Irish immigrants to the United States in the nineteenth century.

They also described Italian immigrants in the early 20th century.