All three guys have played in roughly the same number of NBA games. Kyrie & Rubio have more starts than Lin. So yes I can give both players equally the same amount of benefit of the doubt considering that all three in there first chance at significant playing time played at really high levels. There age is irrelevant to me. All three are works in progress but young pg's with great talent and tremendous upside. Does the fact that Kyrie & Rubio being younger than Lin mean that they will be better players maybe. But I give all three the same benefit of the doubt now because only time will tell who really has a productive NBA career.
You need to re-read Cxbby's original post to see what the context really is. Then, my point will make sense. So, the Rockets told him to work on his overall game, but for some reason Lin felt the need to specifically mention working on his left? Why is it so hard to believe/admit that his left is a significant weakness? Now you're not even disagreeing with me, but with Lin and the Rockets. Just like people, who think it's all a racial thing, will always think it is. Lin can do no wrong, if you think he's doing something wrong and doubt him, then you must be a racist Lin-hater-doubter, right? My opinion hasn't been modified. He's got specific elementary weaknesses that should have been adressed much earlier in his career and likely played a part in him being overlooked. Morey sees them. Mchale sees them. Lin sees them. Fix them and there will be less doubting, if any.
I said we should give Lin the same benefit of the doubt now, that we'd give Irving and Rubio now. Because they did just as much on the court. Not sure why we are comparing Lin's age now to when the others got drafted. Lin is 2 years older than Rubio and 3 1/2 years older than Irving. Hardly a quantum leap. Also, the point guard position more than any other takes time and experience to develop, because it is the most cerebral position. The coach on the floor. There are countless examples of late bloomers such as Nash, Billups, Stockton, Payton etc. who's careers only took off after they turned 25.
Lin is better going to his left than Lamar Odom ever was going to his right. And that guy was nearly an all-star with the dribble drive being a large part of his game.
Everyone and their mother knows about his left. The Rockets have given the incoming players a list of specific things to work on , AKA their weaknesses, and you dont think working on his left was part of Lin's list? Lin just suddenly decided this was the year to work on it, without any push from a team that makes it a priority to point these things out? I apologize, I've had to sort through a ton of comments/replies. I thought you said "imagine we had just drafted", but you actually wrote "traded" so i wasn't including their first year. however, my point stands. irving's got twice as many starts under his belt. To me, that counts more because it's always harder to sustain above average play over a longer period of time. Defenses had more time to make adjustments for Irving than Lin, but he still kept playing well. Both rubio and irving came into the league and played almost immediately. They're ahead of the curve and that's why they deserve it. More talent, played better earlier, and still have more time to keep improving before they start hitting their prime.
Omg. I never said it wasn't a weakness. But i said your making a big deal out of something that really doesn't need to be a big deal. I already said that the pnr was 70% of the plays he used and he went to his left hand more when using the pnr than he did with his right. So clearly it wasn't as significant of a weakness as you make it out to be. And also your entire last paragraph is rubbish. The weaknesses he shows now are NOT the reason why he went undrafted. It was because he went to a small conference, was an older draft pick, the flaws in the draft process, his race etc. You are looking at the player he is now and pointing to his weaknesses and saying oh makes sense. But that isn't it, because when he went undrafted he was a MUCH different player then compared to what he is now.
You're right. He went undrafted for EVERY possible OTHER reason, than his actual on court play. I guess no one in the NBA wants to keep their job. I guess if he wasn't turnover prone, had a weak left, lacked lateral quickness to defend, and had a questionable J it wouldn't have made a difference, right? And for the record, i said his weaknesses played a part in going undrafted. I know they werent the only reason.
What does this even mean? Allowed to play earlier. PGs can improve well into their prime. Lin has plenty of time and has already improved by leaps and bounds through "deliberate practice" as previously mentioned. Until Irving and Rubio actually demonstrates this through their exponential increase in production next year, there is no guarantee they will improve at all.
You dont think he had opportunity to earn more playing time over 29 games in Golden state? I know his MPG weren't high, but he had stints for longer periods of time where he could have shown more to earn more time. Give Irving and Rubio the same amount of games/time and i think they earn more. You don't think they're more talented? Would you trade Lin straight up for either? why or why not?
I don't know how to answer that until you define it for me first? What is it, some metaphysical superhuman trait I am unaware of?
Then that's my cue to agree to disagree and end the discussion... haha, yeah, im starving, this dragged on too long!
RV, it seems as if you're a good dude. I see what you're trying to say but imo you are not putting your logic together well on this one. 1) You first stated that you've noticed Lin could/would not go left and often hesitated to go left. You stated this matter-of-factly as if it were the absolute truth, but advances stats and pretty much everyone here who has seen Lin play has said that the "weakness" you feel is so glaring is overblown. Then, you admit that you didn't watch many games and that he may have gone left more than you had originally stated but..... you then go on and say the same thing again, now without a solid opinion based on sufficient experience and without any stats to back your statements up. You, then state that the Rockets telling Lin to work on his left proves that his left is a big problem. But, in fact, there is no evidence, report, etc. showing that the Rockets felt Lin's left was a big problem that must be overcome. To the contrary, the only comments having come from the Rockets on Lin is that they find that Lin may actually be underrated and that they expect him to take a leadership role on the team although he barely turned 24, and has only played 50 odd games. I work on being patient with my kids all the time. But, trust me, it's not like I'm not a loving father and I'm not patient with my kids. I'm just striving to be even better to my kids. 2) Just because the scouts and coaching staff missed out on him, does not unequivocally mean that, there must have been something wrong. BTW, he was offered contracts by at least 5 teams, and made the NBA coming out of Harvard, undrafted, and being Asian. Plenty of people have seen the talent. What it came down to, IMHO, was that in addition to the factors that Roxxy stated above, Lin's excellence comes not from his individual skills, whether it be dribbling, shooting, or whatnot, it comes from "heart", being a "winner", possessing leadership, and running a team and maximizing the assets on the court at hand, resulting in wins. These are things that are often overlooked today, and in its stead all we talk about is how NBA ready a prospects body is, or how fast they are. Several scouts have mentioned this as well after Lin first blew up. 3) Lin, Rubio, Irving have shown early in their respective careers that they could do great things in the NBA. Therefore, all 3 of them deserve to be given the benefit of doubt though each clearly have areas to improve on, not just Lin. This is because they earned it on the court, not because of previous ranking. And I beg to differ on them having more "talent" than Lin as you've stated several times already. Not even bringing up his intangibles, Lin's ability to penetrate is a talent that even Irving and Rubio can match. And penetration and breaking down the defense is the most important talent one can have in basketball.
Agreed. One of us is making an argument based on abstract, non-substantial, unspecific, unidentifiable, unquantifiable, hocus-pocus concepts such as "talent". While the other is dealing with facts and reality. How the hell is that **** going to mesh. C'Ya.
Because you obviously haven't seen Lin play, let me be the first to tell you that Lin's defense is gonna be a clear asset on the team, not a liability, and is and has been actually a strength of Lin's. Don't let the high number of steals and blocks fool you, it's his attitude on D that's gonna surprise you, especially in crunch time. This is another one of those SAS points that are repeated by impressionable people everywhere when they talk "knowingly" of Lin. Yes, Lin has weaknesses, but they are not what you make it out to be, and everyone including Irving, Rubio, Rondo, and Nash has weaknesses they need to work on. Unfortunately, the spotlight is unfairly focused on Lin now, that is all many of us are trying to say. Let me ask you a question, if you think Lin has a "questionable" left, is turnover prone, and can't defend well, are you telling me that he would go undrafted once again, were he to undergo the draft again? If yes, then, you'd be a blind scout and I'd fire you. If no, then, you're basically admitting that they missed his potential.
I've had a ton of replies and that hasn't helped me organize my thoughts, so you're right about that... Initially i said he wouldn't go left, my mistake was thinking about a handful of games i saw. I admitted to that and was wrong, but i guess people will keep arguing it... my issues now, and my main issue back then, was a weak left. Again, there's a lot of replies i've had to read, but i dont recall anyone proving he was good going left, just that he went left more than i claimed. I feel pretty strongly about this one. I'm almost sure morey either mentioned this as a weakness he needed to improve. I'll try to find a quote or something...I think it's public knowledge that the rockets prepare some kind of report or check list for their players, at least incoming ones, like i mentioned. i dont think it's a stretch to say working on his left would be included in Lin's. Same goes for the same plane pass Mchale mentioned. You quoted me when i was talking about Lin back in college, not now. His d is improved now, but his draft scouting reports stated he had trouble laterally, despite having a good first step offensively. If you look at Lin's workouts the last year or two, he's focused on his lateral movement, hence the improvement. Again, i said these were his knocks coming out of college. I didn't say they all apply now. And i admitted they "missed out" a looooong time ago. Not just in this thread, but back when we cut him. Thats the thing. Some people are jumping on me now because they assumed im anti-lin and think he doesn't deserve to be here, hasn't improved, scouts were right in passing him up, and so on...which isn't true, and iv'e explained that already. Time out guys lol...everything that could be said or replied, already has been ...
