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People Still Follow This Team?

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Matt_Maloney, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. msn

    msn Member

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    on yet another bunny trail, I think this 2nd wild card thing is complete nonsense.
     
  2. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    Which part?

    The only thing that bothers me is the communication with Strasburg himself could have been better. Most Nats fans agree with the decision.
     
  3. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    They either should have:

    Decided they weren't going to shut him down as long as he was healthy

    or

    Adjusted during the season to ensure he was available for the postseason

    Kind of amazing the same team would let Strasburg back in after a rain delay, but shuts him down during a pennant race.
     
  4. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Right. How hard would it have been to have him miss one start per month and then be ready for the stretch run and playoffs and pitch the same number of innings?
     
  5. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    That has been the biggest knock. How easy to skip a few starts, or go to a 6 man rotation, or even as a last resort, put him in the bullpen.

    It is unfair to him and his teammates for him to not be playing in the postseason.
     
  6. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    I view pitching him in some strange routine as kind of counter-productive. The bullpen idea especially just doesn't make any sense. It's not just the innings limit...it's also getting him used to a normal starting routine over an entire major league season as an extreme power pitcher. The most innings he's pitched in the majors before this was 68, which preceded the surgery.

    There is clearly a HUGE problem with young pitchers tearing up their arms. At least the Nats are trying to do something to combat it. Would be nice if the MLB itself conducted an investigation, similar to the NFL and concussions, but that's not happening.

    It's just kind of funny how some people seem to almost villainize the Nationals for essentially looking after a young franchise player's health at their own expense.
     
  7. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    Plenty of teams have gone the bullpen route over the years, including us last year with Jordan Lyles. Look what team has a 6 man rotation.

    Going to a temporary 6 man rotation or skipping a few starts isn't very counterproductive if it increases your odds of winning the world series. Explain how shutting a guy down before the end of the season is preparing him for an entire season compared to skipping a few starts to be available later in the season. 6 man rotation would have also helped Jordan Zimmerman, Gio Gonzalez, & Ross Detwiler who are all going to have career highs in innings pitched, and then have the postseason tacked on. Gio should be able to handle the increase, but depending on how deep they go, that could be a 25%+ increase for Zimmerman and Detwiler.

    People aren't knocking the Nats for worrying about their investment. The Nats are being knocked for not making simple decisions to improve their postseason team, while not hurting their future.
     
  8. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    The main point of this season is a progression. Cautiously progressing him to where he will be comfortable and healthy pitching a full season as normal starter in a five man rotation. Pitching him an inning a time out of the bullpen for a portion of the season or pitching him on a sixth or seventh day isn't really preparing him for what will be a normal routine for the rest of his career.

    Is Lyles coming off Tommy John surgery? If not, then it's not comparable. Also, Lyles is nowhere near the franchise player Strasburg is. The Astros have a lot less invested in him.
     
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    I honestly think it would be funny to see the Nats lose out on a playoff spot after shutting down their ace pitcher. I don't know if that makes me evil.
     
  10. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    How is shutting him down completely with 5 or so weeks left in a season a "normal" routine?

    The Nationals are concerned (rightly so) with the number of innings pitched. While I think having him in the bullpen for one or two inning stints isn't necessarily a good thing, I don't understand how missing 1 start a month would contribute negatively to his future routine.
     
  11. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Yep. Most teams only get so many chances at the postseason. Oftentimes, things have to align just right and the future is not guaranteed.
     
  12. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    Key word...progression.

    What's preparing him more for a full season as a starting pitcher in a five-man rotation?

    Pitching 160 innings in a normal routine?

    Or pitching 160 innings and pitching in a routine which will never be replicated again, with additional rest between appearances and/or shorter number of innings per appearance.
     
  13. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    No, but they were still limiting his innings, the same as Strasburg. Just like they are this season going to a 6 man rotation.

    Do you think they will shut down Strasburg at the end of August every year? Otherwise, that isn't the normal routine either. He's had enough time starting every 5th day to be plenty used to it.

    This was the perfect team to go to a 6 man rotation. They had 6 quality starters, they had a big lead in the division, and they have 3 starters that haven't really pitched more than 160 innings in a season.
     
  14. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    Most players miss starts during a season.
     
  15. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    Of course not...but it's more of a normal workload than what you're proposing.
     
  16. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    Especially sharing a division with the Braves, who also have an amazing collection of young talent and the Phillies who aren't afraid to spend a small fortune, and for the time being have Halladay/Lee/Hamels.
     
  17. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    Skipping starts isn't unusual. 6 man rotations long-term are, but to follow this belief in limiting innings for young players, but not doing the same for your 2 other young studs, doesn't make any sense.
     
  18. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    Well, first of all...it's not just being young. The Tommy John surgery is the main driver.

    Second of all, they have already been through this with Zimmerman. He had TJ surgery a year before Strasburg. Did his 160 innings last year. And now he plays a full season. I'd say it's worked out pretty good.

    Third, Detwiler is older. Has been in the minors and majors since 2007 as opposed to 2010. He's also never shown to have injury issues.

    Fourth, neither of these guys are Strasburg in terms of franchise/investment.

    I understand disagreeing with it, but it's going to be really tough to find a comparable example.
     
  19. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    This is part of a really long, but interesting article:

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...ton-nationals-shut-stephen-strasburg-too-soon

    "They might be right, but given that the injury risk has already been reduced so significantly, it's likely that any further benefit to shutting down Strasburg will be minuscule. Meanwhile, the risk that shutting him down costs the Nationals the NL pennant or a world championship is a lot more than minuscule. The point of having a pitcher like Stephen Strasburg is to help you win a championship. Preventing Strasburg from helping you win a title this year — so that he might be more likely to help you win a title in the future — is causing certain harm to your team in the present for a theoretical benefit in the future. That is, in a word, dumb.

    That leaves the issue of Strasburg's recovery from Tommy John surgery, which the Nationals will tell you is the entire reason behind their plan to shut him down. They'll tell you that Strasburg is on the same plan that teammate Jordan Zimmermann was on, and that Zimmermann was limited to the same number of innings in 2011, and that Zimmermann has pitched just fine this year. (Never mind that the Nationals were miles from a pennant race last year, or that since August 1 Zimmermann has a 5.54 ERA, so it's not like being babied last year has kept him from being gassed this year.)

    There are a couple of holes that need poking in this position. The first is that pitchers have been having Tommy John surgery for decades, and once they're healthy enough to return to the mound, they've typically been healthy enough to pitch a full season. "
     
  20. DCkid

    DCkid Member

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    It is an interesting article. I'm sure the Nationals compiled a much larger amount of data and research into the issue than the writer. Add to that the fact that the Nationals have an extra degree of caution since they are actually stakeholders in it. It's easy for an outsider to say "just play him" when they have absolutely nothing to lose or gain by it.
     

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