No I've long been opposed to our support of Saudi Arabia and Israel. They're both scumbag regimes to me. The difference to me is the way both of our governments give legitimacy to killing Palestinians and stealing their land. Everyone agrees the Saudi monarchs are backwards ass scumbags but the Israelis always get a pass. It might be the lesser of two evils in the short run but in the long run i believe most people want freedom, dignity, and respect. That's not something you impose on a culture, it's something they have to come by on their own. Islam needs to grow up a bit and it will only do that on its own but it's a lot more complicated situation than you give it credit for.
I don't think they are anywhere close to being comparable, even. Israel is a democracy. There is freedom of press, speech, religion, etc. Saudi Arabia doesn't have any of that. Yes, Israel has the Palestinian issue but you describe it way too much as a one-sided affair as if only Israel is "killing Palestinians and stealing their land" - don't forget that they are under constant threat and Palestinians have been killing Israelis, too. I just don't think one can put it as if Israel and Saudi Arabia were comparably "bad". I don't doubt that it is complicated. I don't have a solution either. But what I see right now is that rather than freedom, dignity and respect gaining ground in Saudi Arabia, unfortunately, the opposite is happening - the backwards ass scumbag culture from Saudi Arabia is being exported to other Islamic countries and they are moving in the opposite direction from freedom, dignity and respect - be it Pakistan (obviously), Mali, Indonesia, or even the immigrants in Europe - the trend in many countries is that Muslims are moving towards radicalization and towards being more backwards - largely influenced by these Salafists. I have just read more polls supporting this impression regarding Muslims in Germany. Rather than becoming more moderate, they become more "conservative" (towards the Saudi line of thought). And that is what worries me and drives my posts here.
Here is a link to the data source (B'Tselem) for your own consideration: http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp
Have you got the graph showing who fired the first shots in all the conflicts? Regarding Palestine.. If you want to look at history, this is Assyrian land. As I said in the other thread, where is all the media attention regarding the plight of the Assyrian people? Assyrian churches are being burned and demolished, while church attendees are being executed their christian faith and for not converting to the religion of no compulsion. Anyone? Hello? Why don't you start a campaign for the Arabs to leave Mesopotamia and give the Assyrians their land back?
If you want to look at history, America is Mohawk land. Unfortunately, Israel was founded after the adoption of United Nations conventions and the establishment of coherent international laws that pretty much defined seizing land from others with use of force as a big no no, and I'm pretty sure those have a statute of limitations on them, you know, what with the whole "s**t, North/South Americans and Australians are all living on stolen land" kind of thing.
Look up Australian Mabo indigenous Land rights... I have family still in Iraq that can trace their genealogy back to the Ancient Kingdoms. So are we just chopped liver? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This argument has been going on for decades, and 100's of years before that. To find a solution we must first look at the source of the problem... What is the real reason Muslims hate Jews? Anyone?
At last a half-way intelligent paragraph on the issue. One thing for sure your supporting wars like Iraq, supporting other more or less neo-con militaristic foreign adventures in the Middle East, and constantly spouting pretty simplistic Muslim hatred to the point where you appear a biggot will not make Muslims more moderate in Germany or anywhere else.
Something to do with international law violations, beating and imprisoning children and condoning regimes like MuBARAKAEGYPT, though I can't see how that would anger anyone. Yeah, some stupid "look at my religion's dick, it's bigger than your religion's dick too!", but it's funny who tends to have this attitude these days, especially on this forum. It wasn't always soooooo----
What a load of whiny apologetic crap. Know your history...go a little further back to find the source of Islamic hatred of the Jews. Start with Khybar and Yathrib, and read a little green book.
you know it's funny, Christianity has a bit of a strain of antisemitism too. Something about Shylock maybe. we should all read our history and find out why it's a good idea to be chestthumping about one religion, and constantly denigrating another.
"ifamericansknew.org" - a site for people like Mathloom... How about "ifemiratisknew.org" - Americans have free access to information. People living in the UAE do not. HEAVILY censored - by the government Mathloom works for.
You would know about that - since you constantly get owned wherever you try to argue with intellectual superiors - which is pretty much everyone.
Off topic post. Spoiler I don't care who's land it is since I believe that the concept of "states" is illegitimate to begin with. However, that is not how the world has worked thus far so it's not applicable in this discussion. I don't believe that only Palestinians should be given that whole piece of land, that they should name it Palestine and that non-Palestinians should be evacuated. Within the statist framework, I support a secular one-state solution with no borders/walls, (based on the overwhelming preference) Jerusalem as its capital and equal human rights for all. If we were to go by legal history, no state technically ever existed on that land prior to Israel. The British owned it and before them the Ottomans. However, states did exist based on looser criteria and recognition from other states. For example, in 1917 a few decades before Israel came into existance, the British Foreign Ministry Balfour declaration, which precipitated the creation of Israel, stated: You see people owned land there. There was a government. Trade. Municipalities. Cities. Towns. Everything. Though all under British imperialism at that point. But you can not just tell a bunch of land owners that they no longer own their land in the Middle East because a foreign imperialist nation decided that it is the perfect place to place European Jews who had been under attack from various European countries. This declaration has absolutely no reasonable basis other than "it's mine now and I can do whatever I want with it." The fact that it was rejected by those who were at that point living in the land (including 4 of the 10 members of Minhelet Haam who voted against a declaration of independence). Subsequently Israel declared independence in 1948 but was only recognized as a state in 1949 by virtue of UN approval. So as far as who does it historically belong to, it is neither Israel nor Palestine as these are state structures concocted by politicians. As far as who is the legal owner, it is partially Israel and partially Palestine based on the arbitrary apportionment by the British empire immediately following the expiration of the British Mandate of Palestine. As far as how it should have been apportioned, any rational human being would conclude that it should have been given to the community which lived there with no discrimination towards race or religion. To come to the conclusion that the whole thing should be governed by a Jewish nation state while absolving responsibility for the people in two patches of land walled off from the rest of the country you would have to look into the most extremist Jewish religious texts. To come to the conclusion that the declaration of a Palestinian state should be approved by its captors (despite being approved simultaneously by the British along with a Jewish state) as well as escape the veto of other states with imperialist interests in the region, you would probably have to check out Mein Kempf. But I imagine that if you are Australian and therefore aware of the stunning plight of the Aboriginese who were far less capable of resisting imperialist impositions, then certainly you will not understand the plight of the Palestinians. But correct me if I'm wrong, as I would be quite shocked to hear that you understand the parallels between how Australia, America, and Israel brutally marginalized their natives all under the strategy of the British empire.
