Offensive Geometry

Does it say how they track an isolation? Is it only when the ISO man shoots? I'm confused because if the ISO man passes (say to a Novak Spot Up), then does the chart count it as both a Melo ISO and a Novak Spot-up, or just a Novak Spot-up?

also, since this says Points per Possession, the Isolation call should count any result of the entire possession, not just FGs or Assists by Melo...but everything like swing passes, pass under the basket to someone fouled for FTs...everything.

That's how Rudy track Iso's (the success of the entire possession) so I'm going to say most coaches track it that way.

I hope I didn't make this about Melo. I'm just not sure how to reconcile those charts versus a 21.0 PER for 9 years.

 

If that is the measurement (you only chart ISO's when the iso man shoots), then you should look at everyone else's ISO. I did a spot check and Lebron, Kobe, Parker, Wade are all under 1.00 like Melo. Durant appears slightly above 1.00. It's pretty much the same success as Melo's ISO shots.

Looks like many ISOs are under 1.00 PPP, which is no really accurate if you count the entire possession. And generally, no one says even Durant's 1.05 (or whatever it is) would be considered efficient. This is being mis-scored....so we can assume the PnR is too.

That's a big flaw.

The charts are not much use to me if they say a spot up shooter is an entire possession by itself. It's not a called play. It's an option from a called play. The PnR, Post-up or Iso (or whatever play) should get credit for that 3-ptr spot up basket.

That's how coaches and scouts score the possession. These charts should reflect how coaches score themselves and their opponents.

 

Pretty sure it counts the shooting part. If Melo ISOs and then passes to a spot up shooter, it counts as a spot up play by that player, not an ISO play by Melo.

But the thing is, it also tells you how often each play is used. If Melo ISOs and shoots a lot with bad efficiency, it tells you something about the overall efficiency of that play.

 

You are right if you want to know what plays work best to start a possession. But if you want to know how efficient a player does in scoring and how much he uses the possession to score, then this chart is what you need. See my previous post.

ISO in itself is never an efficient way to score. That's why I've argue that the conventional strategy of using ISO-and-shoot by the superstar at the end of the game clock might be flawed because it is so inefficient.

 

Look at all notable isolation players. I think you will find they are all under 1.00, with Durant slightly over. So what is an efficient PPP for an ISO? Seems the average is under 1.00 in these charts.

What you're saying is if the chart shows a spike like it does for Melo, then he is shooting out of the ISO too much, versus other ISO players. What I'm saying is what is efficient in terms of their made-up PPP?

Look at Bynum's Post-up. We would all expect that to be efficient. However, his Spike and PPP are worse than Melo's ISO. What does that mean?

We don't know what efficiency (PPP) means in these charts, since you are only scored when you shoot.

I think it's a cool measure of balanced scoring, but efficiency of plays...not so much....actually not at all.

 

Look at the charts of
Durant: http://www.hickory-high.com/?attachment_id=4405
LeBron: http://www.hickory-high.com/?attachment_id=4411
Melo: http://www.hickory-high.com/?attachment_id=4420

Melo uses ISO to shoot far more than the other two players. Durant and LeBron might have used ISO as much as Melo (don't have to numbers here), but Melo is much less likely setting his teammates up in those plays.

 

I already did look it up. And you actually don't know whether Melo is setting up his teammates...we really only know that the Knicks offense goes through a Melo ISO more than OKC goes through a Durant ISO.

I don't really want to make this about Melo. I was just trying to question what these charts mean, and whether they can be used to measure a single player or whether they are meant to measure a team as a whole.


Now look at Bynum. Why is his Post Up worse than Melo's ISO, both in spike and PPP? To me, that means these charts are not designed to measure a single player but rather total "Offensive Geometry." They are to measure a team. Don't try to apply these to a player, because we simply don't know how they measure a possession. This is good for a look at balanced scoring and team efficiency is about all.

For all we know, Novak only gets his most efficient Spot-ups when Melo ISOs.

For all we know, the reason OKC runs less ISOs for Durant than Melo is because Melo's ISO is overall more effective than Durant's. We don't really know anything from these charts about a single player. We do know one thing. Melo is a 21 PER player over the last 9 years, so you can't say he's inefficient.

 

HP, I re-read your previous posts and I think I misunderstood you. I don't disagree with what you say, that these charts are more about teams than individuals.

You did mention players like Durant, Lebron, Parker, Wade, etc. and point out that they were about the the same as Melo in terms of ISO scoring. What I was trying to say is that they might be the same when they actually shoot in ISO situations, but that doesn't mean they are equally efficient when the teams run ISO plays through them.

Not from these charts, but we generally know that if a team shoots a lot by the ISO player, it's offense is stagnant and won't be very efficient. Like I said, pure ISO scoring is inefficient. You have to use it to set up offensive options.

We don't really know that either from these charts. There could be a number of reasons why Durant shot much less out of ISO than Melo did.