Actually, I'm having a really hard time seeing how you could say it isn't relevant. Your very first post in this thread was this: In other words, "this is a sin because the Bible says so." If you accept that things are sins or not sins based solely on the Bible's say-so, this would mean that you believe slavery is perfectly reasonable. And then if you DON'T believe slavery is okay, then it seems like you need to explain why "the Bible says so" is enough to condemn homosexuality, when the Bible gets that whole slavery thing totally wrong.
The New Testament and monotheism undermined slavery because it demands allegiance to God and the divine will, placing all individuals on equal footing before God. All forms of slavery are incompatible with this truth. The Bible treats the slave as a human being capable of relationship with God. While the Old Testament demanded that slaves be treated humanely, the apostle Paul went farther and asked Philemon to treat his slave as a brother. This ethic ensured that slavery could not forever survive amongst biblically consistent Christians. Hence the Abolistionist Movement. Unlike the Quran which endorsed slavery, and the rape of slaves, I'm pretty sure there was no William Wilberforce or Bartoleme de las Casas in Islam. The Prophet Muhammad, the most revered figure in the religion, was a slave trader who practiced endorsed and approved of slavery. Even his own pulpit was built with slave labor. But you won't find any lefties attacking Islam or the Quran in regards to slavery, and the Prophet Muhammad's own participation in, and approval of the rape and mistreatment of slaves. From the Hadiths Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Muhammad looks on in apparent amusement. In Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Muhammad, who does nothing about it. It seems bashing on Christians and trying to discredit the Bible has become fashionable for the liberal hippie left wing hipster P.C brigade. Also Racial slavery finds no justification in Scripture and is much worse than economic slavery. Race-based slavery calls into question the basic worth of a person due to their skin color. This is plainly unbiblical. Is slavery wrong? In his excellent article, The Bible, Slavery, and America’s Founders (2003), Stephen McDowell outlines the biblical view of slavery. :grin:
Izak, are there a significant amount of Australians who are observant Christians or is it more like Europe?
I don't remember the specific timeline but I think the time when Christians and Christian leadership didn't have a real problem with homosexuality lasted longer than the current period of a lot of "homosexuality = big sin" thought. Or there is always the fun period (mid-late medieval, perhaps?) where leadership basically said it was ok for a man to give but not receive. I forget, I should look this up, ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz................
You can read into free will and calling slaves "brothers" all you want, but at the end of the day, there's no actual condemnation of the practice of slave ownership in the Bible. Only rules on how to do it "the right way." My whole point is, the Bible isn't 100% right about everything, nor was every word designed to be followed to the letter for all the rest of history. I regard anyone who disagrees with that as crazy person. ...and actually, to address the part of your post that most makes my eyes roll: The problem with that is that most Christians aren't "Biblically consistent." It's amazing to me the quantity of Christians who seem to miss the core message of the faith: love thy neighbor, treat him as you would yourself. Help the poor, be pious. That stuff. If all (or even a majority) of Christians actually paid attention to that core message, the thing that would leap into my head when I heard "Christian" would be "gee, what a loving person who helps out at the soup kitchen." Except, in reality, when I hear "that guy's a Christian," I think, "oh, he must hate gays and Muslims." And that's just sad. In practice I find people use it more as an excuse to hate and judge and exclude, rather than love and forgive and include. While that's not the core reason I consider myself agnostic, it definitely helps take the shine off the whole structured religion thing. Oh, and one more... Dude, you're reaching so much, I'm afraid you may have broken your arm. Slavery is wrong. The end. It doesn't matter if it's race-based or not. The Bible is okay with slavery, and that is wrong. Period. I'm sorry that that fact apparently bothers you, but it's the truth.
Lol you are the biggest bigot ever. Why are you bringing Islam in here when it's about Christianity? And obviously your sources are bogus.
I've heard many stories of Australians being one of the most racist people. Which would explain a lot of your posts on here.
People are the same everywhere in my opinion. There are those that adhere fully to the Christian message, and who are observant Christians and then there are those who say that they are Christians because they believe in Christ, but live a life contrary to how Christ would have his followers live.
The economic slavery or bond servant was a way for people to pay off debts without having to go to prison, amongst other things. A bond servant or voluntary slave isn't the same as the 'slavery' that we would normally associate the word with. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were voluntary slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to enter into contracts to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters. Spoiler Would you rather have someone incarcerated until their family was able to pay off the debt, or have that person work off the debt under a set of laws designed to protect that individual whilst they performed the agreed upon duties? Forced Slavery is not right under any circumstances, and the Bible through its Christian message of loving one another, doing good for the least amongst us and doing unto others...are guidelines on how to treat all people, including those in bondage. This Christian message is what lead to the abolition of slavery. While the Bible doesn't come out and specifically condem slavery, it no where advises its readers to participate in the slave trade. (unlike one religious dogma in particular, whose Prophet was a slave trader) The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms, such as the voluntary bond servants that I mentioned in the first paragraph. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries. Both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders (I won't mention the religion of peace), who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). In the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10). The main purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others, but as you said it is truly amazing how many Christians have missed the core message of Jesus, and twist his words to justify their hatred to their fellow man. As I have shown, the Bible is not 'ok' with slavery, having rules governing and regulating a practice, does not necessarily mean that you are 'ok' with said practices. Our governments make and pass laws governing and regulating practices that they don't necessarily agree with on a daily basis. The Bible specifically states that it is against forced slavery and putting people into bondage. And it truly doesn't bother me, not much does. The Aussie motto is 'she'll be right mate', Jesus said something similar.:grin: Now that that is settled. Next. God Bless.
1. What race is Islam? 2. Australians most racist? Obviously Your sources are bogus. ( Your post is a bit of a prejudiced, racist and bigoted opinion if you ask me. You've just offended all Australians and labeled 20 million people as one of the most racist people on earth! Nice going Einstein, what is your encore? Are you going to drown a kitten?) 3. Everyone has been told never to trust anyone who says Trust Me...just saying. And as I said previously... Instead of answering, agreeing or disagreeing with the post you launch the classic lefties ad hominem & non sequitur attack to defend your position. And another thing... Spoiler So racist!....I just had post this picture of Sally Pearson
I just love this. First of all, we're talking about what the Bible says, not what you personally believe the Bible resulted in thousands of years later. Saying the Bible is against slavery because you think certain ideals eventually resulted in abolition is a dubious position at best, and intentionally deceptive at worst. Since we're apparently judging the merits of the Bible on what it caused, how about the Crusades? The Bible caused mass murder! How terribly sad. "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are." (Exodus 21:17) Oh snap! There goes most of your post. Sure, while god frowned on "man-stealing" of his particular people, it was okay if it was foreigners or women. The Bible's a good book and a good message. It is. But parts of it don't apply anymore or are simply wrong, and the whole "gay = evil" bit is one of those things, along with slavery.
Exactly my point. Just like people free people from slavery, not the Bible frees people from slavery.
Repped and very well said. I am going to add while I find it an interesting intellectual topic about what Christians believe regarding homosexuality for me personally it isn't that much of an issue. Christians, Muslims, or other religion have the right to hate on homosexuals for whatever religious justification they have. What is an issue for me though is how those issues are reflected in law. Whether your religion condemns homosexuality or not that view shouldn't be expressed in US law as under the principles of separation of church and state and equal protection homosexuals should have the same rights to marriage as heterosexuals. At the same time though no church or temple should be forced to recognize such unions.
Thank you IzakDavid13. I enjoy reading your posts. I must say to those wanting to understand the Bible and it's message, it is necessary read more than a few verses here and there, trying to nitpick and approve or disprove a particular agenda. One must read it completely and study it, trying to follow the message found within it. However, one does not have to be literate to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus said this. Matthew 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 9:35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.” As for the apostle Paul, he says that he, himself, is a worse sinner than homosexuals. He also says that the law is made for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers... So what is Paul saying? Should true Christians care? What do Jesus' teachings say about slavery? Homosexuality? Anything? Is Paul saying that the law exists to outlaw homosexuality or make it illegal? Is this possible? Is he saying that the law of marriage exists for only one man and one woman? What were the laws in Judea in 90AD? I Timothy 1:5-17 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. 8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. The Lord’s Grace to Paul 12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
