[VIDEO] Oscar Robertson Highlights - THE LEGEND IN HIS PRIME

Royce White, the next Big O

 

I don't think anyone is disputing the athleticism of bill russell, wilt chamberlain,and big O...it's the fact that their stats are so inflated due to the style of play, lack of D, and the poor level of competition these guys had at the time...why do all your arguments fall back on these guys physical attributes and shy away from the level of competition at the time, which is the main point of the argument? Instead we keep hearing about russell's high jump records and wilt's running speed, etc. ...we get it... but what about the other little white dudes in the videos, and why are people driving to the basket with out a single person touching them? cmon, quit avoiding the point...

 

I think everyone agrees that Dwight Howard is the best center in the game now, right? He's maybe 6' 10" tall, a great defender and rebounder and has no offensive skills at all. But he's the class of the league.

Take a look at 1969-70 for example, by comparison. Russell had just retired, so he doesn't even make the list. But the top centers were Chamberlain, Lew Alcindor (Kareem), Nate Thurmand, Walt Bellamy, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld. I don't think there's any debate that at least four of those guys are better players than Howard. And they were not "little white guys". Even Unseld, who was just 6' 7", would still be a legitimate center today (sort of like Ben Wallace, but with more skill). The rest are basically the same height as centers today -- Kareem and Chamberlain a little taller, Reed and Unseld a little shorter, maybe. On top of that, the league was only half the size, so the players faced good centers more often than they do now.

(It's the 2, 3, and 4 positions where players seem to have gotten much bigger now, not center or point guard. At point guard, you had 6-4 guards like Frazier and Robertson. But at small forward, you would likely have 6-4 to 6-5 players as well (Bradley and Havlicek). I've read on this thread about listed height inflation. Lots of the centers listed now are 7' even, and its kind of hard to believe. Kareem was listed at 7'2", but that wasn't true either. I saw him play a few times in person and he was definetely taller, closer to 7' 4".)

As for the style of play, clearly its different now. There isn't nearly the amount of fast breaking done anymore, and I think this is largely because of the three point shot. Now, every team tends to have a couple of offensive players at least sitting at the three point line, and they become immediate break defenders. On top of that, I have not seen any center in the league who can throw an outlet pass the way Russell, Chamberlain, Unseld or Walton used to do it. Those guys would get a rebound, pivot in mid air and throw a pass to the midcourt sideline. When was the last time you saw that happen in an NBA game. Probably never. The game is just different today.

As for defense, they had a strong illegal defense rule back in the late 60s and through the 70s, and it was enforced. So they played true man to man defense, and that opened things up tremendously (as did the lack of the three point line). There were some cultural differences as well. Flopping was unheard of, and people didn't take charges. In 1970, Kevin Loughery tried to draw a charge on Kareem. Kareem broke four of his ribs, and punctured a lung -- was in the hospital for four days, and missed the rest of the regular season. Today, Kareem might even have gotten a flagrant 1 for doing that, maybe? In some ways the game is much less physical than it was then (and in other ways its probably more physical). Again, different games.

Of course you can say that, with their level of conditioning and training, alot of those players would get eaten up in today's game, and not be able to keep up with the athleticism. But that's not entirely fair, because if they were around today they would have access to the same training and conditioning regimens. Conversely, I might argue that your average guard today would not be able to keep up in that era because he would get called for palming or traveling on every single play.

Free throw shooting, just about the only purely objective thing you can measure, has remained just about constant for the last 50 years at about 73-5%. Field goal percentage has fluctuated some, but its harder to make consistent because of the radical changes in what makes something a shooting foul. In my opinion, long range shooting has improved tremendously, while jump shooting has declined, midrange shooting has deteriorated, and the hook shot has basically disappeared. That said, nobody back then had a fallaway as beautiful as Dirks or Dreams. Conversely, I doubt anyone today has a jump shot as pretty or as deadly as Jerry West's.

 

I forgot to add one thing: From 1955 to 1982, the penalty situation gave a player three free throws to make two on a shooting foul. Thus, there was no percentage in fouling someone who had a clear drive: you would just give up the two points and a foul. Small rule changes make for very different games. The rule changed in 1982 to a simple two shot foul, and it was soon thereafter that Pat Riley started the whole "never give up a lay-up" philosophy that is now the norm.

 

LeBron James, Tim Duncan , Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire, and Allen Iverson couldn't beat a bunch of Argentinians.

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Moreover, we are also only talking about the elite athletes from those time periods. So, they would measure up better than say the average player from those time periods.

I loved how you talked about the rule changes and style of play. Especially, the outlet pass, which I argued earlier alot of those centers would be considered godly now. Because they have actual offensive skills, a post game, can play above average defense, and as sad as this sounds...some of them could probably run an NBA offense better than some point guards these days, especially Chamberlain, Russell, Walton, and Unseld. Centers nowadays are just over-sized or undersized loafs, outside of Howard, the Gasols, Bynum, and few others.

People are talking up players, like Hibbert and Noah. I cannot see them doing much against most hall of fame centers. Wilt or Kareem would tear both players to shreds. Neither one has enough strength or skill to slow down a player like Chamberlain, while Kareem is too knowledgeable and too skilled to struggle with them.

 

and previously lost to Puerto Rico and Lithuania. Still, I do think that's more of collusion and team function problem.

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I'm still trying to figure out in what areas of the game Oscar Robertson would struggle with since he's supposedly inferior player. He's an all time leader in assists (again remember this was before 1980, assists are awarded differently and more liberally) and a elite scorer. Probably a great athlete, built like bull and would be one of the largest shooting/point guards in the game today. Alot of teams would have to use small forwards to guard him. He'd eat most guards alive in the paint.

 

One summer Hakeem trained with the UH sprinting coach. The same guy who trained Carl Lewis. I believe his best time was 11 seconds.

 

Howard would **** them out for breakfast. ANd probably have his way with Reed, Hayes and Unseld (who made Chuck Hayes look like a skilled offensive player) too. He's far better than anybody they ever faced barring Wilt and Kareem.

Read the thread. Or any critical analysis of that era. I know black & white pix of Walt Bellamy killing it for hte Fort Wayne Zephyrs playing against a bunch of bus drivers and meat packers from Sheboygan Wisconsin. in 1961 plus bogus stats is persuasive, but why don't you actually think for a second.

Honestly, whenever anybody attempting a case of back in-the-day-ism types the word "Bellamy", they're dead. That was Rockets Dynasty's big mistake.

You're just marking yourself as somebody who has utterly no idea what he is talking about and thinks Joe Lapchick and Bill Sharman could wreck the Rucker. GTFOOH with that.

 

Nate Thurmand...who is that??? If you are going to have the decency to pick at someone with a ROTFL, you should at least get their name, right . . . so it won't make your own post a mockery of its own-self.

 

First thing I responded to was Wilt's athletic ability. Not only was he by far the best athlete of his generation, but he would still be the fastest center by far, the best jumper in the league, and the strongest player. And it's still not even close.

So a guy said, but what about all the little guys he had to play. And my first point was that the centers were not little white guys. Today, the median listed height for center was 7'', in 1969-70, it was 6' 10 or 11.

I did also say that four of the centers then were better than Howard (and remember that Howard is way better than any other center today). I didn't mean Bellamy or Thurmond. Instead, I was thinking of Wilt, Kareem, Reed and Elvin Hayes. As for Unseld, if he played against Howard, there would be very little scoring on either side. It's hard to say because I haven't seen Howard actually have to deal with anyone with a wider body who actually boxes out (another lost skill in the last 20 years).

Face it, centers today pretty much suck. Point guards from that era and today I think are pretty much a wash -- Oscar, West, Monroe, Frazier would all be elite guards today. The best players from that era would still be very fine players today. The Laker team with Chamberlain, West, Baylor, Goodrich would still be a top team, as would the Knick squad with Frazier, Reed, Debusschere, Monroe, Bradley and Jerry Lucas. It's great to praise athletic ability, but Scola is still a valuable player, and he would definitely be one of those slow white guys that you see in the videos.

Go ahead another 15 years, and there's no comparison (either with that era or today). The Magic/Kareem Lakers or the Bird/McHale Celtics would pretty much have their way with any team in the League right now.

And by the way, I base all this not on stats (and definitely not on any single "Advanced" stat), but from having watched the game closely for the last 40+ years. I think today's players could actually play beautiful basketball, but the combination of expansion, the star system, the Disneyfication and emphasis on highlights over fundamentals, and the lack of any decent system for teaching kids how to play has undermined alot of the game. What I see today is mostly a bunch of tremendous athletes who don't really know how to play the game, and have no incentive to learn.

 

The guy was just reposting my typo. I disagree with what he's saying, but I would ease off on mocking anyone over a typo, especially when its clear who he (and I) meant.

 

I was lucky to see him play.