Don't bother with Tinman. He believes Hakeem is more skilled than Jordan. That type of blatant homerism doesn't deserve any attention.
I'm not going to derail your thread on who I think is #1. I'm just saying your #1 could be other people's #2.
Honestly . . . the 2nd best player of all time is ... Michael Jordan. Hehehehe This is towards, OP, how is MJ obviously the best player of all time. I typically do recognize him as that, but when there's NBA that has had the likes of Magic Johnson, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Wilt Chamberlain. 1. It took MJ ... 7 years to get to the Finals, while it only took all of those other players only 4 seasons to reach the Finals. In fact, I could even argue that Olajuwon and to lesser extent Bird and Chamberlain got to the Finals or Conference Finals with lesser teams. 2. MJ for as great as he was never, effected the game on both sides of the court, like say Chamberlain, Russell, KAJ, or Olajuwon. MJ for most his career was mostly a scorer and playmaker. Most of the great centers were great scorers, excellent at rebounding, exceptional on defense, and etc. MJ at his greatest could only carry a mediocre team so far. In fact, I've argued you could replace MJ with one of the top 5 centers of all time, and I said Chicago would not drop off at all and in fact would improve in some areas and get deeper into playoffs much faster. I even contended they would've gotten past the Pistons, much sooner. C- (Pick Olajuwon, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, or Shaq in their first five years) PF- Horace Grant (or Charles Oakley) SF - Scottie Pippen SG - Fill it with any capable SG PG - John Paxson (BJ Armstrong Same coaches/staff I still cannot picture the Cavs, Knicks, or Suns beating those teams with such a great center in place with the Bulls. You cannot tell those teams would fail to win less than 4 titles, even throwing in Magic, Bird, and Robertson at times. 3. As great as he was, was he the most versatile player of all time. Arguably, I'd said no, because he was not as versatile as say Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. I'm not saying he couldn't elevate a team, but I do not think he necessarily exploited his teammates advantages, like some of these other players did. In fact, MJ persistently condescended his teammates and management, even when they were really do not like to say you can make your teammates better, but you exploit their offensive strengths. I'm going to catch flack for this one, honestly. I do not think he was top 10, when it came to that, in fact in more recent times. I actually think Steve Nash and LeBron James do a better job of that than MJ ever did. Which comes from being an unselfish player, and maximizing the overall offense. Here's my other point, Oscar Robertson in his prime could average as many points as MJ and still lead the league in assists. 4. Michael Jordan dominated the league, but I think Wilt dominated it more, even past his prime he was more than formidable for most players. Wilt Chamberlain probably was a little like Lebron, if he was focused, he was unstoppable and could do anything. If MJ's shot was not falling or he was not getting to basket, it took away the effectiveness efficiency in his game (don't get me wrong, he was a great passer and defender, but as far running the offense I do not think it came as naturally as it did with other players). With Chamberlain, there was almost no way you could take that man out of his game. If he wasn't scoring alot of points, he was still the best rebounder and post defender on the court. Moreover, Chamberlain in his career also finished twice in top 10 assists. Even to this day, it sort tickles me to think that any center active right now would be able to stand a chance against Chamberlain, outside Dwight Howard. If you think a player, like Samuel Dalembert, Darko Mlicic, Pau Gasol, or even Tyson Chandler is going to slow down Wilt or any other great past center, substantially. You are out of your mind. A simple eye-test will tell you that.Most of these players do not even have any kind of will power or stomach for physical contact. As I've said earlier in the Kobe vs. MJ arguments, alot of people figure that if Kobe is better than MJ, then that would make him the best player of all time. That's somewhat of a flawed perspective, as I've said before MJ could be as high as one on an all time list, but as low as 6th, arguably. IN fact, there was a coaches poll (NBA) back in 2000, guess who they named as the best player of all time . . . not Michael Jordan. Oscar Robertson. Again, I am not hating on MJ or trying tear him down, but I simply highlighting that there were some pretty damn good players of the years who helped there teams win just as much as he did. Most of all, I'm pointing only that he was not the greatest every single facet of a basketball game, and that there were some players who did a few to several things better than he ever did in his career.
I meant his era/generation. Kobe is a third behind Duncan/Shaq. And no, peak-to-peak Lebron is better than Kobe. So is Shaq and Duncan.
Again, he was a stat stuffer. If we use that argument, the best 3 players ever were Lebron, Oscar and Wilt. Oscar wasn't as dominant as these other players.
The dude can't deliver for his team in the clutch. NO PLAYER deserving of being the 2nd player all-time, can be a hinderance to his team in the clutch and a player who needs to avoid the ball and resort toothers.
I'm going to pretend that you never heard of Oscar Robertson, or at least look at some his stats, quotes about his career, or even look what type of rosters he had, during his playing career. If you gave Big O a Pippen, Grant, and etc to play with, or gave him any kind of semblance of great squad for most of his playing career. I bet he has as many titles as MJ.
Dream had the ability to guard shooting guards like he did with Jordan on switch offs. I don't think Jordan can do vice versa, or they would have him guard Shaq. Why is this "skilled" debate even brought up? is it because some of believe that the Rockets of the 90s defeated the Bulls of the 90s when they matched up? especially in the early 90s? Or is this because you feel people are "homer" if they could "do it all again" draft Jordan over Hakeem? just trying to see what your REAL point is.
