Did you just say Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were B-Level All-Stars? Back in 07', those three guys were the alpha dogs on their respective teams with Hall of Fame written across their foreheads. Not only were they talented players, they were players that people would pay money to go see. Kevin Garnett was arguably a top 3 player in the league at the time and Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were top 3 talents at their respective positions. That is a hell of a lot more than Pau Gasol can or will EVER offer. Okay, we'll play your game. Please tell me three "B-Level" All-Stars that the Rockets would be able to obtain once they have successfully shipped out all of their most worthwhile assets for Pau Gasol. Oh, and do remember you just allocated a third of your salary cap to Pau Gasol. Gasol is already showing signs of decline and you really only have a window of about a year, maybe 2 at the max to put together a team to compete with Gasol. Considering the fact that the Rockets have been hoarding "assets" ever since Morey took over as GM, what makes you think that the Rockets will all the sudden be able to surround Pau Gasol with two other "B-Level" stars? Please, do tell. To this day, the Rockets have not been able to put together a trade for a legitimate franchise cornerstone and if Pau Gasol is the best you can do with all of your supposed "assets", you are in for a lonnnngggg and exhaustive rebuilding process. In the league today there are so many "A-Listers" in the league and they are as follows: 1. LeBron James 2. Derrick Rose 3. Kevin Durant 4. Kobe Bryant 5. Dwight Howard 6. Dwyane Wade 7. Chris Paul and you can argue your case for the following two: 8. Carmelo Anthony 9. Dirk Nowitzki Do you know what they all the legit superstars (Top 7) have in common? They are all surrounded by legitimate stars in their own right and are built to compete for the next 3-5 years. The Rockets don't even have a BLUEPRINT for a contending team and they want to bring a "complimentary piece" to a team severely devoid of talent? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. There are far more economical solutions to rebuilding and adding talent than grossly overpaying Gasol's $40 million remaining over the next 2 years. I'm sorry, but paying $20 mill a year for a guy averaging 17 and 10 and is deemed by analysts, beat writers, and even his PEERS doesn;t exactly scream bargain to me.
Yes I do realize how good they were. Garnett probably would have made the Hall of Fame, but Ray Allen and Paul Pierce... I personally dont think so. Both guys had the Kevin Martin(best player on a bad team) reputation. All three are now future hall of famers because of what they were able to do when they came together. Back to Gasol. Ill be clear about this. I do NOT think he is anywhere near the leader and defensive presence that Garnett was or still might be at times. This isnt a Garnett vs. Gasol debate. Im merely trying to help people understand the team I believe Morey is trying to build based on what he was able to help build in Boston a few years ago. However, Gasol gives you a similar model of big man you can use in a system that has him playing off of two or three other players that complement his style of play better than the team he is with now. You match him up with the right wing players, and another big man that fits him better, and you have something to watch out for. Just watch the olympics this Summer. He plays incredible alongside the other Spanish national team players that really fit his style of play. In the right system(which I believe the Rockets could have that, and if you want the X's and O's we can analyze that further if you want to go down that path) he's a phenominal player to play off of.
Im explaining that type of trade Morey is going for. Not Garnett vs. Gasol. Ill be very clear about that one. That being said, would Pierce and Allen really be considered future hall of famers had they not all gotten together in 07 to win a title??... IMO I dont think so. I meant the B-Level All star as a notion that all three players could not win a title on their own. Hope that helps aleviate the B-Level comment made earlier.
Are you kdding me? Go take a look at Ray Allen and Paul Pierce's numbers. Their NUMBERS alone would have gotten them into the Hall of Fame. Not to mention the fact that they ARE 10x All-Stars and would have been even if they were to have remained with their respective teams because they would have put up even BIGGER numbers without the help that they have now. Paul Pierce was arguably the 2nd best SG (behind Kobe) during his prime and Ray Allen willl be remembered as one of the GREATEST shooters to EVER play the game. Unless Kobe Bryant is the only player getting inducted into the Hall of Fame from the last decade and a half, your argument doesn't even light a candle to mine.
Oh and this... You just compared two perennial All-Stars (Ray Allen and Paul Pierce) to "he of 0 All-Star appearances" (Kevin Martin). To say you understated their significance to their respective teams prior to joining forces is a HUGE understatement in itself.
Woahh.... Big man we got here. Dude, if you want to argue against what I was saying player vs. player FINE. Ill admit that Gasol & whatever other players Morey would be trying to get together in THEORY would not be up the direct standards of NBA accomplishments that the 07 Celtics had at that time. Thats not what I was arguing or even trying to argue about. YOU are the one TRYING to argue. Im not. Stop getting your panties into a wad. Your totally missing the point of what I was getting at. Its the model of trade that I believe Morey is going for. Your wanting to turn what I say into an argument that suites an upperhand in an argument that isnt even happening. Get off your F-ing high horse.
I think your the one getting your panties in a wad. I'm not mad about what you think morey's objectives should of shouldn't be. However, I did have a problem with you doing Allen and pierce a huge disservice by comparing them to Kevin Martin when trying to state your rather futile case about how they aren't HoF material.
Look we can agree to disagree on the subject of pau gasol. No hard feelings, but imo the negatives far outweigh the benefits. The rockets would be better served looking elsewhere for alternative solutions.
Im pretty sure you went out of your way to take one small part of a post I had written and tried your hardest to disect an argument in your favor that had nothing to do with the point of my post. There was never an argument to begin with that wasn't created on your part. There was no case to be made. It was a comparison of players(albeit not equal in stature) that would not be considered superstars that automatically make a team a contender on their own who are combined together to create a basketball dynamic that takes the team in a new direction to compete. A win by committee design. I wasnt doing Allen or Pierce a disservice by saying that they would not be a Hall of Famer if they would have stayed with bad teams throughout the rest of their careers. Thats pretty much a given IMO, but we can agree to disagree about that too if it makes you feel better. Ray Allen is/was a great talent as was Pierce, but could not lead a team to a title on their own. -side note on Kevin Martin- Kevin Martin is on everyone's hate list at the moment in Houston, but there is no denying that before this season he was one of the most dynamic wing scorers in the league. He dropped off considerably this season, but in the right system there is no denying his talents whether you personally care for him or not. I wouldn't compare him to Ray Allen in stature or talent, but he could potentially be the missing piece to somebody's lineup eventually. Its probably not going to be with Houston anymore, but some other team might make him their Ray Allen to their Paul Pierce & Kevin Garnett, etc. hypothetically speaking. How quickly everyone on here forgets. Regardless, I personally do not think that Gasol is viewed as the ultimate solution for the Rockets, but merely a piece to the puzzle they wanted (past tense) to build. Going into this Summer, I agree that he doesn't necessarily make sense in single move unless there are other moves set to be made in a domino effect.
ultimately, the issue boils down to the trading market- in the NBA, you simply cannot trade $.50 for a few nickles, dimes, and quarters. In order to get superior talent, you have to overpay. Morey has a ton of smaller assets, but he has been unable to convert them into stars. Unfortunately, I don't see this approach succeeding anytime soon either. We also don't have the pull for free agency stars. This floundering in mediocrity is really difficult to take.
Pau plays when he feels like it. Given that he implied he didn't like the idea of Houston, I don;t know why anyone thinks they'd get 100% from him. He sowed up after putting in one of the worst playoff performances for a player of his caliber perhaps in history in Game 6. I actually don't dislike Pau. He seems like a nice, down to earth guy. But he's got the money. He's got the rings. And he's likely got the HOF. I don't think he has the personal motivation for more. I recall reading that he was an incredibly smart dude, with a variety of interests, including medicine - was thinking about becoming a doctor at some point. He doesn't have an alpha dog drive, and at this point likely doesn't have a second in command drive. If and when he kicks it up a notch it isn't saying a ton, because at his size, athleticism and skill, versus today's 7 footers, he should average 20/10, in the playoffs, in his sleep. Of course, if he did have that drive, we'd want him and the Lakers would have no thoughts of trading him.
I didn't have any qualms about your opinions about Pai Gasol and the only reason I picked up on your comments about Allen and Pierce was because I really do feel you greatly understate their significance to their respective teams prior to being grouped together. I think you give yourself far too much in regards to "my wanting to nitpick at your argument", but hey if it makes you feel better about yourself, by all means, believe your heart away. Or maybe you should get off your high horse? Honestly, don't flatter yourself. I have no issue with Kevin Martin, but even the most casual fan knows that Martin is not and has never been on the same level as Allen or Pierce. As for pay gasol, I honestly believe he is a solid complimentary piece...if you have a Batman in place. So at the very leadt we agree on that note.
Still doesn't change the fact that he has declined as a player over the past few years and as a whole had a very bad series against the Nuggets. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't make them soft in the brain. How about you post some more excuses about why Pau's fg% has dropped over the last few years due to Bynum and then completely fail to respond when the very data you provide disproves your theory.
Gasol essentially makes twice what Luis Scola makes. They are about the same age. Is he worth twice as much? Is he worth paying over $19 milllion a year to? If Gasol could attract an A-List All Star to play with him in Houston, and Morey knew that he would do exactly that, then maybe. But is it a worth a roll of the dice that he would get us a Deron Williams or similar caliber player? A year ago, I might have said yes. Now? I don't think so. I simply don't see a reason to believe that Gasol would be that catalyst. I would have to be convinced, and so far, I'm not.
You bring up a really good point about production in relation to salary. I think what a lot of people that are against the Gasol trade to Houston are trying suggest is that there are far better options that would be more cost beneficial alternatives to the Rockets than allocating $20 million dollars to a single player that really isn't putting out a significant increase in production from a player you already have on your roster (Scola) that is making less than half the amount you are due to pay Gasol.
What the hell are you talking about? You originally commented on my post. You pushed for an argument about something that was never a part of my "argument" or the point of what I was trying to get at and you felt like you needed to go on the attack. I was trying to get you to calm down before this thread took on a life of its own to defend the career of Ray Allen of all people. Who cares? Its just an analogy of the model of a team I believe Morey was trying to create with the Gasol trade. If that means Im on my "high horse" then so be it. Its comments like that that I should learn to never even reply to in the first place. Some people just love to argue on this board.
