He must have come after Yao, too. There were some extremely interesting "injuries" and shutdowns from February onward in 2002. To the OP of this thread, yes, I'm eating my crow. My aversion to tanking basically occurred because the Rockets were so close if not for David Stern. Not that Gasol and Nene would've made the Rockets a true contender by themselves, but I think it would've put us in that Memphis/Clippers tier to where we would be an automatic playoff team and conceivably be one player away. There would be legitimate hope and an appeal to drawing (and keeping) a marquee veteran via free agency or leveraged trade. It's tough to go from one extreme (automatic playoffs) to the other (youth development) in a matter of days, and with the lockout shortened two-week offseason, that's what it would have taken. That's why I didn't want to wrap my mind around "tanking". Still, Les and Daryl are in the positions they are to make those tough decisions, and they obviously didn't make the correct one. I still want Morey as the GM, but the direction of this season was a mistake and I'll take my crow.
So "best" is based on your assessment of team's management? Best to me is what I see on the floor. Guess we just disagree on this one.
Yep, you found me out...sorta. I didn't become an analyst of basketball till after Yao (thank you cf and the internet). Happy, old-timer? Sheesh can't even be just a fan these days....
In reality, the outcome of this would be only mildly different from were we ended up. NY still makes the playoffs, we still owe NJ our pick and Dallas still decides to keep its pick. The only difference no is that the decision to give up our pick this season becomes a little more clear cut short of a miracle on lottery night.
I agree that high picks don't guarantee a winner but it does GREATLY increase your odds if you know what you are doing. I also think the FO has something to do with it and all those FOs you list are perennial losers for a reason. Do some history behind the Bulls, Heat or Thunder. All have a losing season in there somewhere where they reloaded. The road we are on has never lead to a championship. You can say Detroit did it but there is no way you can compare our team to a Detroit team. We are what we are which is a bunch of low 1st round selections and 2nd round picks that make up a group of overachievers which Morey thinks he flip those "assets" for a star and then maybe superstar. Personally I don't see ANY team EVER willing to give up a superstar unless that superstar is old (and that team is wanting to reload) or that players says "Houston or else" - which the only time that happens is if we already have a superstar. A catch 22 if you will.
If the best is what's been on the floor the past several games, then yes we will have to agree to disagree.
The tanking mentality is for losers (and I don't just mean the teams, I mean the people who support it). It looks like we may have just not been good enough to make the playoffs, but that's no reason not to try.
I will never hope for the Rockets to lose any game. Nor do I believe it will help the team in the future. When the team is young they need to learn to win. That is more important than a pick which the odds say could be a bust or only marginally effective. A whole team learning what it takes to close out games, play together in order to win, and the pride involved in that is valuable experience for them, and will develop the team more than tanking IMHO. I don't like watching a team not trying to win.
The Bulls hit the jackpot with Rose, but don't foregt how how terrible they were for a decade after Jordan left and how many times they swung and missed in the lottery (Jay Williams, Fizer, Eddie Curry, Tyson Chandler, and Tyrus Thomas all in the Top 5.) The Heat nailed it with Dwayne Wade in 2003, so maybe that comparison is valid, but they also struck out with Beasley in 2008 when they were in a position more similar to us. The Thunder have been managed as well as any team this decade, but it took 3 years with 4 Top 5 picks (Durant, Green, Westbrook, and Harden) to get where they are today. I totally agree that it takes drafting a superstar to set up long-term success, but I just think it's worth noting that most teams spend a very long time in the cellar before they ever get back to the top of the mountain. A one-year tank job is not likely to cut it. With all the crying over a 6-game losing streak, I have a hard time seeing how this board would deal with 3-5 years of truly sucking to get back to contention.
One year into it, which means they just cleared it up at the start of the season. However, this debate, of tanking vs quick rebuilding, has been going on since the beginning of last season. "give it time" was appropriate back then. You had several stars looking to jump ship. Like 95% of them already did. We'll have to wait 2 seasons to be in that position again. Why not collect a high pick or two, while we wait?
no one is advocating for the players not to try. that wouldn't happen anyway. you just don't make filler moves to bring in vets that get you "just good enough to be marginally competitive." you don't bring in a dalembert. you don't trade for a camby. those guys are bit players brought into support. they're good role players, but you don't have the star of the show.
Tanking in some people's mind is us just throwing games, missing shots on purpose to lose and stuff like that.. Tanking is a bad word to use.. I say it's more like this.. Trade Scola mid season, Trade Kmart mid season.. and do it to contending teams for either draft picks or young players that can help us down the road. Then play our rookies like Marcus Morris so he can actually develop kinda like Parsons did. in doing that we would have been very young and inexperienced and we would have lost games and been in position for a top 5 pick… so my question to you non tankers is what did this season get us? keeping scola and kmart around, not playing marcus morris or acquiring young talent??? it got us NOWHERE.. it got us another 13th-15th first round pick… Tankers like myself ae not saying run down the floor and not play hard and lose on purpose, but more like playing young talent taking your licks knowing that u will get draft picks, have money in FA to spend, and will be creating a chemistry with young guys to build around… we will be this way next year unless Morey Trades Lowry, Kmart, and Scola to contending teams while they have cred in the nba and their trade value is high..
I'd gladly wait patiently for something like that to happen. Hate seeing my team lose but to me it's more bearable to watch young players with huge upside develop and grow by losing than a mix bag of vets/low-ceiling youngsters scrap to miss the playoffs EVERY year!!!
Those teams mentioned are not well run. They have horrible front offices with, maybe, the exception of Toronto. Well run teams like SA could tank, get their star, and win for the next decade. The Rockets are a well run team. Their superstars just kind of crumbled and got carried off by the wind. Of any year to tank, this would have been a great opportunity. Shortened season means we don't have to sit through 82 games of suck! Just 66. That along with a deep draft would have had us sitting pretty with the 4-9th pick with a better chance of getting in the top 3.
100% agree. It is uberrare to have a short term bottom out. Even when you hit the jackpot on the right year, it usually takes that player a couple of years to mature to the point of climbing back out. But I think most true fans would be patient if they knew that the FO was really trying to get us back on top. Believe it or not there is some pleasure in watching young players improve even if the end result is a L. That L was already factored in going into the season and means a better player is hopefully on the way soon to help. What you probably would be losing is the corporate seat buyers. I think Les knows this and is why he doesn't want the financial pain of rebuilding.
PERFECTLY SAID. Couple this with trading your high value guys while they actually have value for picks or high ceiling young guys. Trading for a guy like Gasol and signing a Nene would've only prolonged the marginally competitive behavior. Getting tired of the "stern screwed us over" attitude. He kinda did us a favor.
Now see this is what I call rebuilding. Like you said, tanking is a bad word. I'd have no problem doing this. I understand the business of it all. Players are assets. To be successful they have to be treated as such at times. Trading to improve assets on hand is completely acceptable. I even agree about getting the young players more time. As long as you use whats on the floor and still try to win. Losing due to inexperience and lack of top tier talent is acceptable as long as the effort is there. Purposely taking your assets out of good situations in order to lose is ridiculous.
This idea that there is a single solitary formula for establishing a lasting championship caliber team in the NBA providing a franchise is willing to endure a cycle of defeat referred to as "tanking" is just preposterous nonsense. Tanking for higher lottery picks is like Sally Field's line in Forrest Gump. "The NBA draft is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get."
I'm not against rebuilding and I'm not against sucking as long as the team plays hard every night and leaves it all out on the court. I'm against gaming the system, which is what tanking is. I am also against flopping and cheap fouls with intent to injure. I am also against stealing the opponent's playbook. All of those things would also help us to have a better record in the long run, but that doesn't matter to me. Because the victories that come from gaming the system are hollow ones. I'm not just against tanking; I'm against all kinds of cheating.
