He says and writes that he is a Christian. Interestingly, he has avoided many traditional Christian events in Washington in favor of other religious events, especially Muslim. This may be for political purposes, but it doesn't do much to support his claim.
It doesn't do much to damage his claim either. Many Christians don't make a public show of their religious events.
he says he is therefore he is---- he need not support his "claim". there is not a single person on earth that can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are "true believers." this entire thread is a nonstarter.
How is it a non-starter? I questioned his motives and beliefs. I didn't use them to make a conclusion about him. I started with a conclusion and then tried to make sense of actions. I put my ideas out there and if you filter out the noise, got awesome input. I never considered he started with the motives I suspected and then gradually moved to true faith like Major suggested. I also didn't even think about Samfishers point that all Obama supporters naturally think he is better/smarter/'truthier' than Bush and therefore the problems they had with Bush's faith won't be a problem for them.
I went to a mosque once for Friday prayers to meet with the leader there. I participated in Friday prayers. Am I a real Christian? Over the course of my life I've had doubts...I've been angry with God...I've been angry with what I perceive to be His absence in points. Am I a real Christian? I associate with lots of people who most people would say don't live a "Christian life." A ton of my friends are either completely silent on the issue or agnostic. I'm going with one of those friends to the Rockets game tonight. Am I a real Christian? I often find I have more in common in my view of the world with people outside the Church than those that are within the Church. Am I a real Christian? I don't care much for "orthodox theology." I don't believe that guy named Jesus did either. I'm damn near certain I will never have all of it right at any one point...and I've been on both sides of virtually every issues that's divided the Church since its inception. I can make compelling arguments for either side, but I'm convinced that the "answers" are beyond what I can really every fully conceive. Am I a real Christian? You could absolutely take pieces of my very imperfect life to suggest I'm not really a follower of Christ. And if you chose not to believe my words, then you could believe about me whatever you wish. Ultimately, I do not care whether Obama is truly a believer with respect to his performance as president. As Martin Luther said: "I'd rather be governed by a wise Turk (Muslim in his day) than a stupid Christian."
If he came out and said, "I've been lying this whole time...this was only for political gain" then I would question his wisdom and his character.
I don't care either with respect to performance. I never made conclusions about performance based on motives.
In that case I get your non-starter. 1. I wonder if x. 2. Don't care. If it isn't something you are curious about, it doesn't mean those that are somehow are inferior.
casey, i never said you were inferior. i am happy you got something out of this thread but i would venture to guess that you are the only one.
Agreed, if I shrunk it down to a single page I think people could follow it easier. Sam didn't even read or post in it till the end and basically saw a new angle going pure 'Jonathan Haidt' on me.
Just jumping in this without reading all pages. I believe your question is based on a false premise and outlines a core difference between social conservatives and liberals. Most liberals would never even ask such a question. I'd say most liberals give it little to no thought about Obama's Christianity ...and THAT is the reason they "don't have a problem with his Christianity". To say it more strongly, to even use the word "problem" in the question indicates it was considered. For most liberals, it simply isn't a factor. All that said, liberals realize that public perception matters when running for president so they realize it matters to other people. But that's probably about the extent of how it's factored in. If Obama announced he was an atheist, I think he might still get elected this year. Republicans aren't voting for him anyway. Given our Alternative, I think he could literally pull it off. THAT is how much I believe that liberals don't care.
This is problem with American politics and our culture in general. Why the focus on religion? Who cares about what he believes? Religion should be a non-factor. Only the idiotic masses of uneducated and ignorant bible belt fundamentalists will try to make it one.
Straight up, I found your post disturbing. It seems that you are going through a crises of faith. I have noticed the changes in your posts on the board since we emailed several times a few years ago. You know full well that the "doctrines" of the Church are based on the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. Most of the decisions on different views were made in the first 300 years. The greatest confusion in doctrine has been in the modern and post modern times. But that is another story. My concern is for what you are going through. To answer your questions, most Christians I know don't go to mosques to pray, aren't particularly unsettled about what they believe, and don't agree more with the "world" than their faith. So, I guess by your own description, you don't sound like a Christian. But based on my email exchanges with you I believe you are. There is something different, it seems you are struggling with some issues and I truly feel for you. I have been there. I just hope that you weather the storm and come out stronger for the experience. In the last year, I have gone through a "near death" experience. I am now disabled, but still fighting. Life does look different, what I can see of it. I keep remembering three things about my Christian faith: unmerited favor, unlimited forgiveness, and unconditional love. All the doctrines are summed up in these beautiful truths. I sincerely wish the best for you. You are a bright guy with much to contribute.
