God is suppose to be everywhere right? If in some remote place where they have not heard of Jesus, but the people acted like Jesus taught, would they not be more of a Christian than someone who says he is a Christian but acts selfishly and mistreat others around him? Or is baptism and other rituals more important in making you a Christian?
I don't get involved in religious arguments. I am not a theologian. I would say they are not Christian because they don't even know about Jesus Christ. I don't know how you can call someone a christian if they don't even know who Christ is. If you are trying to make the point that Obama has a moral compass that agrees with what your perceive to be right I think that is foolish. People of all religions have similar morals. I get it, you don't care about his religion and are making your judgement of the man based on his actions. That's great, but the question I am asking is does Obama truely believe in Christ or is he just a politician following social norms. Him having good morals doesn't really matter on that point.
I actually don't care about what Obama is or is not. I am just curious to how does one define a Christian, is it just some rituals and symbolic acts? Or is the deed and actions more important.
I think this is where the disconnect comes from. Liberals in general don't have a problem with Christians - the majority of them ARE Christian. What they tend to have a problem with is the use of religion in politics: like you said, the "religious right". That is a political movement that uses religion and specific religious beliefs as a wedge issue to create "good" and "evil" (gays, abortion, etc). But that has little to nothing to do with Christianity itself. That was also the issue with Bush - it was not that he was Christian. It was that he seemed to use his Christianity for political reasons.
Yes I never said being liberal and being christian are somehow morally incompatible. This entire thread is opinion and political. I think GWB was more criticized in the media on his religion for admitting he prayed on important decisions rather than doing things like the marriage amendment. also I would argue that if you believe my premise (that you haven't commented on) Obama has used his Christianity far more than Bush has for political reasons. I am not passing judgement on it, and am fairly neutral towards it, but if that is your main issue, how do you respond?
I don't think you really thought about his statement Max. When I think of Christian values I think of values that are unique to Christianity, not simply morals that are almost universally thought to be good.
It's easy to talk about. It's easy to sum it up. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Irkr8YOjclg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I think it's hard to judge anyone's actual process of development of their faith, so I have no idea what's really in his head. I can him developing his faith over time, or through his wife, or through any number of other things. I've had a complicated relationship with faith in my own life, and I think everyone approaches it differently - especially if it's not engrained in you growing up - so I have no idea what route Obama took or if it's genuine or not. From what I've seen from excerpts of his books, he's pretty open about his path to Christianity, and he certainly *seems* to be genuine in it, but I have no idea if that's really the case or not. But that's true of any politician - I'm not sure what Obama has done in regard to his faith that makes him unique for questioning.
I disagree with your statement, because there is very little that is unique to Christianity. Most of the values can be found in other religions, what I think is unique or was at least first in Christianity is the idea of loving your enemies and turning the other cheek. That's really the one that seems to be unique or have originated with Christianity. The bible also mentions those that know love know God. That's pretty universal.
He was trying to make an argument that a person who is deemed morally good is also a christian which I totally disagree with. This could go slippery slope and you could say he is Muslim because he is good. And to repeat, when someone says "Christian values" I think of those values belonging to Christians. Which is basically valuing Christ and his teachings. So to sum up your feelings, you accept his statements about religion at face value and don't buy into my premise. And it seems that if you did buy my premise, Obama using religion for whatever purpose, in your eyes would be a negative?
Please list the most important Christian values and which ones are unique to Christian? I know many if not most Christians in the US violate at least one of the ten commandments.
See what I said in the quote you replied too for the answer. And again, sinning does not preclude someone from being a christian.
Faith - and how they live and use it - gives us an insight into the character and nature of a person. So yes, if he's faking his faith for political reasons, that's a clear negative.
I think he'd rather not talk about it. I think he has had to make political decisions to discuss it in interviews and to insert rhetoric in his speeches because of all the attacks from the right for first being a closet-Muslim and then later over his guilt-by-association with Jeremiah Wright. Poltically, he had to say something about his faith to mitigate character assassination. But, I think it's a stretch to say it was a strategy that went back a couple of decades to masquarade as a christian to be more politically viable.
I guess you are an atheist. What is right or wrong being an invention of God is the basis for all Judeo-Christian ideas of morality at least and probably of other religions as well. To follow blindly, indeed to be cast out of paradise for seeking knowledge, is at the very heart of both Christianity and Judaism. To make one's own judgments regarding morality or ethics while giving oneself over to religion (not God necessarily but God as we understand him from the religious) is impossible. It would be akin to the con game you accuse Obama of playing. Never before has a president of the frigging United States been subject to such skepticism regarding his race, religion, ideology or country of origin. Or in Obama's case all four, and with a side of secretly wanting to defile the Constitution into the bargain. Obama explains his experience as a mixed race man growing up in America; anti-Obama's accuse of being too black, not black enough, too white, white-hating, ad infinitum. Bashed first for exotic (read: unAmerican) name; bashed second for adopting for a time a more traditionally American nickname. Says he's Christian, must be atheist. Or Muslim. Says he's a patriotic American. Must be simultaneously anti-American, socialist AND fascist. Major props to haters for creating a literally impossible bogeyman. Double major props to Gingrich and all who nodded yeah when he said one would have to be a radical, anti-colonialist Kenyan to understand how anti-white and anti-American Obama is. Was professor of Constitutional Law. Must hate the Constitution. And not understand it. And want to pee on it. Newspapers, hospitals, birth certificates say he was born here. Obviously someone plotted on the day of his birth to fake his citizenry because they knew it would be a problem when he ran for president. When he was one second old. Never in the history of the world has a president been accused of lying about such basic and fundamental things. If you tell me you believe in God, I take you at your word, I don't care who you are. How strange that we would first encounter such skepticism beginning on the day we elected a black man president. Remember when we used to ask if America was ready for a black president? Then remember when we thought it had been shown we were? We were wrong.
Somebody (hopefully other than Casey) answer me this: 1. When in the history of our country has a candidate for office been asked if he believed his opponent when his opponent described his faith? When in our history has someone been asked, "When X politician says he is Christian, do you believe him?" 2. When in our history was that answer met by anything but, "Why would you even ask me that?" When has it been met with "You'd have to ask him that." This entire debate, as it is with so many others in the last 3 years, began and ended with electing a black Democrat president. Before Obama, none of this would even be conceivable. Why didn't anyone ask Santorum if he was really Catholic or Romney if he was really a Mormon? Why hasn't anyone asked them if they really believe in God or are only lying when they say they do?
