That is also the point of the hypothetical. Realizing that one would possibly not act differently, given the same circumstances, should give people pause and help them focus on how to solve the problem, rather than digging oneself deeper in the trenches and pointing fingers. Trying to understand the other side rather than assigning blame and hating them has to be a part of any peace process.
It certainly does not. First of all, by your standards for democracy (announcing it yourself) there are plenty of democracies in the ME lol what a joke that you actually called it a democracy. No democracy is far better for us. Also, you have made it seem as though being against Israeli policies now and Palestinian policies in your hypothetical can't both be true, when they can. To respond very clearly, I don't care about the label or the skin color, I would hate the policies of any power behaving in the way I've described. The mentality you espouse is a dangerous one which requires you stoop to the level of your adversary, who you are presumably attacking due to what you claim is their moral inferiority. This mentality literally leads to the human race spiralling into ignorance over time. No one is interested in winning that argument at that price. You support a system which is internally run as a dictatorship, externally runs and supports dictatorships, and in which the voter is openly blocked from seeing their role in oppression of humans that are equal to them and want the same freedoms and the same rights... all in exchange for partial freedom and partial democracy in your homeland, where btw you are protective about immigration. Can you see it? In your system, everything is dictatorial except for where you go, when you go. So yeah, it was a cute trick when you did the ol' switcheroo, but if being your type of "right" means supporting war, then I don't want to be "right" thank you very much.
Dear thegary, If you know where to point the finger, point it as hard as you've ever F'in pointed it, and don't let me or anyone else tell you otherwise. If you feel that palestinians are the cause, then convince us, show us what you know, and point like there's no tomorrow. Anyone is fully capable of pointing fingers and solving the problem simultaneously. These two are related, don't let people fool you into thinking they are not consequential or we are not capable.
This was a very incoherent post. Facts: - Mathloom works for a dictatorship (UAE) - Mathloom wants a dictatorship run by a lunatic (Iran) to have nukes - Mathloom wants an old man to live in fear for the rest of his life because he drew a few cartoons If Mathloom wants Iran to have nukes when the head of its government said he wants to see Israel wiped off the map...what does that mean for what Mathloom wants to happen?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/did-ahmadinejad-really-say-israel-should-be-wiped-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html please do your research on what was properly said, things with other languages can be easily distorted when translated. The guy is a cook, surely, but he didn't make a violent threat toward israel and the media ran with for someone who has criticized going with loaded media, you should try not to do the same. If you have ever been to Iran, there is a decent jewish population, its not lke you see in the media, and they even have a place in the parliament. The president wacko openly says he has no issue with jews, but only with zionist. He also openly said he did NOT deny the holocaust, he said he doesnt know why people can't od more research on it, do more verification of the numbers without getting ridiculed as a denier, of course he was then labeled a denier. This is all easily manipulated by cutting off his quotes and not reading within context. It seems you have fallen into the same traps. Does it make him a good person/leader? No, but the charges you put are often just false
You keep getting yourself owned. One could almost feel sorry for you. German TV broadcasts Iranian Holocaust denial BERLIN – German Iranians and German Jews on Sunday criticized ZDF (Second German Television) for broadcasting without objection an interview in which Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denied the Holocaust. The interviewer was also slammed for failing to raise the repression of Iran’s democracy movement. The Holocaust is “a lie of Israel” that allows the Jewish state to hurt the Palestinians, Ahmadinejad said in the ZDF interview broadcasted last week. Claus Kleber, a brand name journalist for ZDF, a tax-payer funded, public station, aired the 45-minute interview on the popular news channel. (...) http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=263404 <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wW9KxuqfHlE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Once again, he is not denying the existence of it, but his whole point is why can't it be researched like every other historical event, why can't other historians of the world go there, ask questions, do diligence to verify the exact numbers, etc of such a big impact. His claim is not that the holocaust itself is a lie, but he claims that it is a lie for it to be used to go and move and occupy what has not been there land for sometime in palestine. That is how he feels ona nd he has mentioned it on if they dod deserve retribution, than why go take land of others that has already been settled in and developed, why not germany give them land nad their own country. How is it right when other people are already settled, have nothing to do with the holocaust, but had their homes taken away because of something they had nothing to do with. This is what he has and has been trying to say. I don't think president is great, its hard to find someone in the middle eastern politics who is in touch with people's needs, but i am trying to help you understand what he is actually saying when it seems media nad 'translations' are not doing so responsible in accurately
The holocaust has been researched by historians extensively. Just walk around in Berlin and you will find many cobblestones with engravements of Jewish people who used to live in houses there before they got deported and murdered. He said the holocaust is a lie. More than once. He says it right in that video.
a lot more zen archery and less insistence on the absolute would help. it's about the process, mathloom. if the goal is peace/justice, both sides have to become that goal rather than get bogged down in who did what to whom.
I get that, I don't question it, I am conveying to you what he says that they want to be able to send researchers and just verify and he said for any other large even this is possible, but for this it is considered taboo to even want to look for more details. And once again, for the third time, if you undertood the context and learnedm ore about what he is saying, he has openly said that he believes the holocaust happened, but he thinks the pretenses that they were able to gain land being israel and take land that was occupied and home for a long time already becasue of it is a large lie zionist lie. These are all his views that I am conveying to clarify to you. The guy is a wacko, doesn't accept gays so on, so I have no claims for him to be a good guy, but the ammo against him from the media I read time and time again they literally just mistranslate the arabic which can easily be manipulate and take him out of context and I see him do it time to time again. So I am not a supporter of his, but I do hate media being so manipulative and then ofcourse it eventually becoems 'fact' like iti s for you
It is possible, though, that the vitriolic videos you posted are excessively violent rhetoric due to what the Palestinians perceive as their own position of victimhood. If the Palestinians were on the flip side of the coin, who is to say they would still be predisposed to the desire for wanton violence? Who is to say they wouldn't be doing things exactly like Israel, who, essentially, is trying to play it cool in front of the entire world. After all, the Israelis are on a global scene and everybody is watching and critiquing their every move. When you have as much firepower and economical dominance (with the extensive help of Western powers to boot) in the Middle East, of course you're going to be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. If the Palestinians were in that position of power, I think it would be a bit biased to automatically assume that they would simply annihilate the Jews, when the chances are they would be trying to oblige with the political boundaries in the same way the Israelis have done (and the Israelis have erred here, just as I'm sure the Palestinians would if given the power as well). Palestine would still be a governed state, after all. Ultimately, I don't think your underlying assertion is as founded or as rational as you may think it is. And as long as we're going for the reverse here, who's the say that if the Israelis were on the other side, they wouldn't have their zealous Zionist leaders coming to the fore of the political scene and calling for the destruction and annihilation of Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims? You could posit that they would never do that because they're completely surrounded by Muslims. Or you could say that they wouldn't have to do that because they'd be receiving far more help globally due to the very fact that they're completely surrounded by Muslims. There is a subtle reality here--if the Jews were the victims, there is no way that the world wouldn't be getting directly involved in the middle of things. There is no way the world would ever allow something genocidal to happen to the Jews again, after the Holocaust. The Palestinians would be on such a tight, global leash that to simply say their radical beliefs would simply overpower their common sense and lead them to destroy all the Jews!!!! is nothing more than indicative of someone's own pre[mis]conceptions of how Muslims will "inevitably" act.
I've always wondered, when they were figuring this out after WWII if it went something like this: "Dude, we got these Jews who need and want a place to live. I don't really like them though, don't keep them in Europe." "I'm not really crazy about the arabs either, they're always meddling in our stuff. If we make them fight other people, they can't reform the Ottoman empire." "Want to put the Jews and Arabs together and watch them fight?" "Yeah, sure."
Apps, good post. You make a good argument. I can see that it makes sense that one gets more radical the more one is pushed into a corner. One difference, though, is that as far as I know, there are no specific roots for hatred against Muslims/Palestinians in Jewish religious sources, whereas there are pretty specific such quotes in Islamic religious texts. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/koranjews.html [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind....[Surah 11, v. 96] Taste ye [Jews] the punishment of burning.[Surah III, v. 18 1] "They [the Jews] are the heirs of Hell.... They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say ... When evil befalls you they rejoice." Ibid. [Surah 111, v. 117-120] <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MS2t2e76o8I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
An excellent post. I'm surprised no one responded to it. You make some very good points, much of which jives with my conversations over the years with some Jewish Americans and their Israeli relatives over for a visit. In one instance, one relative was as far-right and radical as any mad far-right Fundamentalist Christian found in this country, who was convinced that Israel would use atomic weapons to end Iran's atomic program at just any old time. That was a couple of years ago. I guess he's still waiting. This fellow's brother, who, unlike his Israeli brother (both are in their 50's), didn't move to Israel many years ago, is completely different. As politically moderate as one could desire, and who wants peace there badly. The radicals on both sides have far too much influence relative to their numbers, just as some groups in the US political spectrum do. The one surety is that the situation is incredibly complex, and unlikely to be solved any time soon, and the longer the current "status quo" continues, the more dangerous, in my opinion, things become.
Did the Arabs hate the Israelis before 1948? I thought at that time Arabs were more friendly to Israelis than the Europeans. Would you feel so great if someone told you to leave your home and country tomorrow? I am sure you will just pack up and leave and not say a thing.
