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Let's play a game; drill, drill, DRILL, even if it doesn't make a difference.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Northside Storm, Mar 28, 2012.

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  1. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...-Congress-Oil-Speculators-do-impact-its-Price

    So, how much money are we willing to put in to stop a sinking ship? How much of the environment will you drillers take in a mad hope to cling onto a delusional dream?

    Are you all just accidentally negligent with macroeconomic knowledge, or intentionally trying to destroy the country? The first is somewhat excusable---and with the advent of $2.50 Gingrich, fairly plausible I guess...sadly.
     
    #1 Northside Storm, Mar 28, 2012
  2. bmb4516

    bmb4516 Member

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    Here's the flaw in your assumption:

    "Assuming that world oil markets continue to work as they do today..."

    We need to change the way oil markets work today. Drill and build refineries until we can hit 100% of our own power when you include oil, natural gas, ethanol, wind, solar, geothermal, coal, and nukes. Fast track permits on the OCS, ANWR, and Wyoming shale (estimated 1.4 trillion recoverable barrels). Fast track refinery building. New nuke plants. New solar fields. New wind farms. Everything.

    Speculators are speculating on perceived future scarcity. Take away that perception, and the price of oil WILL fall. Follow up on taking away that scarcity, and the price of oil WILL stay lower.

    And to answer your ludicrous question with a ludicrous answer. I'm willing to sacrifice the entire environment to drop oil by $1 a barrel (Is that evil enough for you, or do I need to stab baby dolphins in the blowhole with a knife soaked in the blood of an endangered Delta Smelt, too?). :rolleyes:
     
    #2 bmb4516, Mar 28, 2012
  3. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    We could change the way the oil market works, but only by nationalizing the oil companies.
     
    #3 rimrocker, Mar 28, 2012
  4. HombreDeHierro

    HombreDeHierro Member

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    fast track funding for development of fusion reactors.

    problem solved. until thats up and running we use oil, natural gas, wind and solar
     
    #4 HombreDeHierro, Mar 29, 2012
  5. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    That scarcity will not change even if you drill all of the oil out of America, because America, even with 1.4 trillion recoverable barrels given under the most extreme of environmental circumstances, will be a piss in the bucket---

    (Canada's oil sands in of themselves contain 1.8 trillion recoverable barrels, nevermind OPEC).

    I also just demonstrated to you that oil DOES NOT work on pure demand and supply. You're arguing in terms of perception. Well, all you have to do is create the opportunity for future profit, and that can range from QE500 to war in the Middle East to watch oil prices go up to $150 a barrel, so what is the point anyways? The oil futures market does NOT WORK on perceived scarcity. It works on the stupid long-only corridors of investment banks, the same as food. We see it now with the wild trend of oil---from $31 to $106, just based on macroeconomic conditions---with no fundamental change in supply and demand.

    This whole issue could be solved more readily with more stringent CFTC regulations then drilling any oil. I don't think you want to destroy the country, but I do think you will based on fundamentally misguided perceptions about the market in oil.
     
    #5 Northside Storm, Mar 29, 2012
  6. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    #6 Dubious, Mar 29, 2012
  7. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Drilling sure has made a difference in natural gas. Have you seen the oil to natural gas price ratio as of late? Very interesting times, indeed.

    These are based on Brent and Henry Hub spot prices.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #7 Cohete Rojo, Mar 29, 2012
  8. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    http://www.vancouversun.com/business/natural+drilling+numbers+drop+year/6314276/story.html

    wait until Goldman Sachs figures their excess liquidity held in hot-pocket dollars would be better spent pumping up another bubble in natural gas, we can solve that problem quick.
     
    #8 Northside Storm, Mar 29, 2012
  9. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    There is no infrastructure, hence no utility for natural gas.

    I was a teenager there were huge flares of 'waste' natural gas burning off 24/7/365 out in the woods. They were trippy places to party.
     
    #9 Dubious, Mar 29, 2012
  10. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Industrial boilers and electrical generation consume the largest share of natural gas in the United States. 11 states including Texas use natural gas as their primary energy source to generate electricity. Here in Texas 45% of electricity is natural gas generated, 26% for the United States.

    http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=5331

    The United States was the world's largest producer of dry natural gas in 2009 and 2010.

    http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=5370

    The market could get bigger as gasoline prices rise. People could look to diversify their transportation fuel by buying plug-in hybrids and electrics. Whether there is a long term supply to meet such a demand remains to be seen.
     
    #10 Cohete Rojo, Mar 29, 2012
  11. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    I wish it would, I've got a huge personal stake in $6 gas. :rolleyes:
     
    #11 Dubious, Mar 29, 2012
  12. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    If drilling isn't worth it, it won't happen. Harvesting natural resources is never a bad thing.

    No one's arguing it should be subsidized like Solyndra. Just get out of the way.
     
    #12 Commodore, Mar 29, 2012
  13. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    What about harvesting organs from someone who doesn't want you to do it? Huh, how about THEN?
     
    #13 B-Bob, Mar 29, 2012
  14. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    Drilling will be worth it, for the wrong reasons.

    Harvesting finite natural resources that require extreme environmental damage to acquire is never a bad thing. yeah...that makes sense.
     
    #14 Northside Storm, Mar 29, 2012
  15. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    #15 Dubious, Mar 30, 2012
  16. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    Northside the problem with this is that the price of oil is driven by speculation. When you have Iran threatening to close the main Middle East oil waterway(the Strait of Hormuz) , it causes the speculators to buy thinking the price will rise when the loonies in Iran try to carry out their threat. If we actually start drilling in the US and greatly reduce our foreign oil dependence, we will have a much more STABLE oil supply that can't be cut off by the wims of crazy nations like Iran. The STABILITY of a domestic oil supply would cause a lot less speculation greatly reducing the prices.
     
    #16 cml750, Mar 30, 2012
  17. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    Forcing consumers through mandates to use alternative energies that don't have the cost competitiveness while limiting opportunities in more traditional energy sources raises prices on people, hurts jobs and increases the costs of energy.

    The policy above is essentially a tax and creates an inflationary effect on energy prices reducing the discretionary income of Americans and limiting their ability to pay off debt, pay for school or start a new business.

    Why are we levying taxes on our poor and middle class during this difficult financial time??
     
    #17 Rocketman1981, Mar 30, 2012
  18. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    The stability of a domestic oil supply that will be a small percentage of America's oil needs (which will still be largely dependent on foreign oil), since even if America were drilled fully, it would not affect world prices or supply significantly?

    You'd have more luck dragging down oil prices by telling the Fed to stop printing money, or by putting stops on excessive trading with the CFTC. That's my point; the idea that drilling oil in America will significantly alter the world price of oil is a bald-faced lie, when the world price of oil is based on so many other variables, least of which is the world oil supply that would engulf the American contribution. So why would you go and damage these areas in the first place, for an idea that makes no economic sense?
     
    #18 Northside Storm, Mar 30, 2012
  19. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    ^That is not even in the scope of the discussion at hand, you're kind of inventing your own scarecrow.

    Not drilling the guts out of America/not subsidizing big oil does not equal forcing consumers through mandates to accept alternative energy.
     
    #19 Northside Storm, Mar 30, 2012
  20. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    LOL, I just love tree hugger logic, the way you assume drilling would cause damage. If you don't think more production from a STABLE source would impact the price of oil then there is really no hope for you. Maybe you should try putting algae in your gas tank.
     
    #20 cml750, Mar 30, 2012
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