I asked some colleagues a minute ago, "I wonder if the world will react in similar fashion when Israel tears down their barrier as they did when the Berlin Wall came down?" Obviously we have not been in a tense "war" for 50 years with Israel, but the wall still stands for the same things, oppression and a lack of liberty. They responded with, there's a wall in Israel? I was stunned, they are convinced that no average person knows that, and that they consider themselves pretty well-versed in global affairs and this was the first mention of a wall they had heard of. I am absolutely appalled! Are people that ignorant? Or is my interest in foreign affairs especially relating to the ME that much greater than the average persons knowledge of the region... So my question to you is (1) would that be as big of a deal? (2) do you think most people know about the barrier?
one wall to keep people in, another to keep people out. (you can subcatagorize "people" any way you wish)
I should hope any reasonably-educated worldly American would know about the fence. But, I'm often caught giving people too much credit. But, no you're not going to get anything like the fall of the Berlin Wall when the fence comes down in Israel. The Berlin Wall was dividing Germans who felt kinship for one another and who wanted to be united with one another and were only separated due to the intervention of foreign armies. The fence in Israel divides two peoples who hate and distrust each other. Even if they somehow put all that behind them, they still don't have the national and racial identity and familial bonds that East and West Germans still had during their partition (save for the more minor point that the wall separates some Palestinians from other Palestinians -- I suppose they'll have a little party).
They don't have the same identity? Their identity has been around longer than any other major religion. They've been oppressed longer than any other group. Mind you, I am not pro-Israel, nor am I anti-Israel. Clearly, the fences and people are different. But you don't think Israel tearing down their wall would represent just as much change as the Berlin wall? If/when they tear it down there will have been some major changes in the region's dynamics and the relationships between the two groups will have altered substantially from today. I should also mention that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace, their leaders are the ones who have historically refused anything offered to them by Israel, the UN, or the world powers, at the expense of the hundreds of thousands of refugees. I feel that the tearing down of the fence would only happen when there is a true hope for peace in the region. THAT would be just as big of a deal if not bigger than the tearing down of the Berlin wall.
Palestinians and Israeli Jews do not have the same identity, not ethnically, religiously, or even nationally since most Palestinians are not citizens. Maybe we just misunderstand each other. I think the reason the Fall of the Berlin Wall was the historical moment that it was is because reunification was like two brothers separated by tragedy finally reunite. They had their squabbles, but mostly loved each other. Palestinians and Israeilis do not see each other as brothers. Taking the wall down would indicate that relations are improving. But, it wouldn't be the sort of instant unity that Germany saw. It'd be a very gradual move from distrust to tolerance to acceptance. Taking the wall down would just be 1 in a thouysands steps of reconciliation. I can see the reunification of the Korean peninsula be more like Germany's experience. But, even there, not the same.
Not the Palestinians, the Palestinians share the same ethnic identity as the Jordanians and Syrians. The Jews is what I was refering to, they share their ancient heritage. I don't think Israel will tear down the wall untill there have been SIGNIFICANT improvements. I don't believe they will tear it down and wait for peace little by little. Of course they are not the same, they're completely different. I get that. I am wondering if the world will be as inspired by the breaking of the barriers, as they were for the Berlin wall. Whether one means more to you or me is irrelevant, I just want to know if you think it is at least on the same level when it comes to the significance of the event.
Uganda and Alaska were two alternative options. The Alaskans voted it down. And I think there were too many bugs/diseases in Uganda. Perhaps it would have been better to let Israel form on its own, rather than prop up a country, allow the immigration, maintain peace, and let national discourse take place. Doesn't really matter now, what's done is done. Did you know that William Bradford and many other American Colony founders referred to the New World as Zion? They thought of the Biblical land of Israel was connected to this new world that they were colonizing. I'll provide more detail on that as I get further into this book, Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East:1776 to the Present.
When the Berlin wall came down the people on both sides were rejoicing because it united Germany again. If the fence comes down in Israel it would allow terrorist to easily gain access. I have said it before and will say it a again, if the Palestinians laid down there arms today there would be peace and in short order two states. If Israel laid down there arms today they would be driven into the Mediterranean sea. Why so many people are blind to this is just beyond me. Some people are just way too easily swayed by propaganda I guess.
Uganda didn't happen because a group at the zionist conference were set on Israel. The British offered up the territory but Herzl caved in at the end when it was clear there would be a protracted fight over the issue. The British also caved because they were sold on this idea of a stalwart ally in the Middle East. At the time it was a win-win for both sides. The Middle East was a place that the West desperately wanted a strategic partner and Israel provided that. I think the broader issue was that Israel never wrote a constitution and consequently never answered some fundamental questions that plague it today. All of these questions regarding the rights of Arabs, the role of religion in the state, etc.. were all put off. The secular wing of Israel assumed that eventually the orthodox communities would disappear and it would answer itself and vice versa. Well 50 years later we still don't have an answer and the tensions between those communities, let alone the Palestinians are rearing their ugly head. Israel is in for a hellish ride over these next 50 years. The orthodox community is slowly taking control of state institutions, the Palestinian question is only going to become more difficult to deal with as demographics continue to change. Israeli Arabs continue to grow in number at a rapid rate and among Jews the only real growth is from the Orthodox community. The demographics of Israel are going to rip the country apart unless they finally decide to solve these fundamental issues. Not to mention it'll only be a matter of time until the conservatives take control of the Supreme Court. (although their system is rigged to ensure that there is continuity of political ideology when people retire) Nonetheless when it finally happens, the last liberal and truly secular institution will go down. I'm honestly terrified for that country. They're in for a world of hurt.
Of course they did. And they locked in their own citizens and tore apart families. And they shot their own citizens when they tried to get out.
Bingo. When the Palestinians commit terrorist acts everyone just looks the other way then condemns Israel for their retaliation.
Ok, I understand you, and I don't think it would by anything on the same level because of what I had explained above.
