Trayvon Martin

an armed civilian chased down (after being told not to do so), shot and killed an unarmed teenager. doesnt matter if trayvon's intent was to commit a crime or not because we will never know since he's dead. how many years do people get for possession of mar1juana yet this guy plays vigilante and is still free.

if he was a celebrity like OJ Simpson then I might understand but he's just some regular joe schmoe.

 

I have shown media bias. On Sunday Cokie Roberts repeated this lie on This Week with George S.

Now many of the 911 calls seem a bit silly. But they do not seem to indicate that he had it out for black people. Basically he was overzealous - if a neighbor left a garage door open, he would call 911. But, once again, it does not appear to be driven by racial animus.

 

OK, Thanks! I'm glad he shot that defenseless kid now!

What a Patriot!

 

Here is how I suspect this situation played out based upon what facts we know.

Zimmerman leaves his house to go on patrol. He arms himself with his 9mm. pistol loaded and in a hip holster concealed in his pants. He has no specific intention of shooting anyone nor is he specifically looking to target a black man. This is just another night as neighborhood watch captain doing what he believes keeps the neighborhood safe.

Trayvon Martin leaves his father's house to go to the convenience store to get a snack. He has no intention to confront anyone. He is wearing a hoodie because it is cool and damp.

Martin gets to the store purchases candy and ice tea. As he leaves the store he pulls the hood up because it is drizzling and because he thinks it looks cool. He stuffs the candy into his pants pockets.

At roughly the same time Zimmerman sees Martin from his car and notes he has his hood up and stuffing something into his pockets. He decides this appears and calls 911 to report it. To Zimmerman this isn't unusual, is something he has done several times and considers it his duty as neighborhood watch. The dispatcher takes the call tells Zimmerman that officers are on the way and not to follow the suspect.

Zimmerman ignores the dispatcher and decides to follow the suspicious individual in his car because he believes that this individual get away before the police can arrive and / or will commit a crime before police arrive. It is unclear whether Zimmerman is thinking about violence towards Martin but I suspect he isn't.

Martin becomes aware that someone is following him and calls his girlfriend to let her know.

Zimmerman is having a hard time following Martin in his car so he decides that proceeding on foot will be better. He parks his car fairly near Martin and gets out and follows on foot. Martin continues to let his girlfriend know he feels threatened by this man following him.

At some point Zimmerman, because of rain or darkness loses sight of Martin even though he is very close to him and decides to turn back. It is unclear if Zimmerman is even planning on physically confronting Martin but has misjudged his proximity. Martin knows that Zimmerman is very close and feels that Zimmerman is about to attack or otherwise confront him and at that moment turns to confront Zimmerman.

They both verbally confront each other with Martin angrily demanding to know why Zimmerman is following him and Zimmerman equally angrily demanding to know what Martin is doing. Both of them feel their fear turn to anger and physically close the distance as the argument escalates. Anyone who has seen an argument turn into a fight between two people, especially males, have probably seen this happen where two guys are yelling and they start moving towards each other until they bump chest. That triggers one to shove the other and the other to shove back leading to blows.

At this moment I doubt either are consciously thinking of the stand your ground law but both feel they are in the right and are standing up to what they believe is a provocation. They escalate to throwing punches, it doesn't matter who threw the first one as by closing the distance both have tacitly agreed to a fight, although not the use of lethal force. Further as they close to confront both are yelling leading to confusion among witnesses about who they hear.

Martin gets a good punch in and drops Zimmerman to the ground on his back. In the process Zimmerman cuts the back of his head. Zimmerman is dazed by the strike but and feels fear overwhelm him as Martin looms over him. At that point he draws his gun, Martin screams seeing the gun, Zimmerman in shock from the punch and also startled by the scream fires mortally wounding Martin.

Martin falls down Zimmerman stands up and over Martin's body in a state of shock. At this point his adrenaline is still racing and his mind is trying to process the situation. The police show up see Zimmerman standing over Martin. They disarm him and cuff him, per the police report, and question him. Meanwhile other officers arrive and attempt first aid on Martin but its too late.

Zimmerman tells him that he acted in self-defense, the police on scene accept the story uncuff him, treat him for his wounds and release him. They hold onto his pistol. In the meantime Martin is sent to the hospital where he is declared dead and then to the morgue.

Now most of this is speculative but it is based upon male psychology regarding dealing with threats and also how human psychology and physiology when faced when under attack. Particularly for those who aren't trained / experienced in taking a blow to the head and aren't trained / experienced in responding with force.

Here are the key points as I see it:
1. Zimmerman didn't set out to kill someone that night.
2. Martin didn't set out to attack someone that night.
3. Both Zimmerman and Martin felt threatened by the other.
4. Zimmerman felt it was his duty to follow Martin.
5. There was a critical miscalculation by Zimmerman about how far he was from Martin. Martin interpreted this as an imminent threat.
6. Both escalated the confrontation verbally and physically and refuse to back down.
7. A fight ensues between the two.
8. Martin knocks Zimmerman down.
9. Zimmerman in a panic shoots Martin.

In Zimmerman's mind he actually is very afraid of Martin when he gets knocked down and fully believes he acted in self-defense.

What all of this adds up to me is manslaughter. Based on the information that we have I don't see this as being murder since that would be require premeditation that Zimmerman intended to kill Martin or anyone that night. Once a confrontation ensued with Martin he didn't back down (not needed by FL law) but at the same time that signaled that he tacitly agreed to fight Martin and disqualified himself from self-defense. He likely didn't intend to shoot Martin though but the fight didn't go his way and being dazed by the punch that laid him out he panicked and shot.

 

But didn't he say "f***ing coons"?

He could have been overzealous (I think everyone agrees on that) AND have racial animus, no?

 

I need to spread some rep around.

How you put it is very likely. This was an unfortunate situation, but you can't get away with killing an unarmed person who was just walking home. This is why there is a distinction between manslaughter and murder.

One thing I expect to come out in trial, is that the defense will claim that Zimmerman had reason to believe Martin may have a gun. Perhaps they will claim he mistook the bulge in pocket from the tea or skittles as being a gun or a knife.

 

It is all I can hear when I listen to the call, but apparently it is not clear enough to be treated as 100% fact.

I think Martin would still be alive if he wasn't black, but I'm not sure this can be considered a hate crime. I'm not very familiar with hate crime laws, but I don't think Zimmerman killed him because of hate for black people.

 

It's not clear what he said. He could have said "goon" rather than "coon." At any rate, what he said is still in dispute.

 

This is a plausible scenario of how this could have played out, and I think your assessment of what the conviction will be is also likely to be accurate.

I only question the underlined parts - we don't know if Zimmerman actually turned around and who confronted whom first, and on the 911 calls, I only heard one voice yelling.

Obviously, as this is speculation, this is only one of many possible scenarios, but nice job.

Question - if it played out that way - is all the anger against bigtexxx warranted in your opinion, rocketsjudoka? And some of the demands by some angry posters here that Zimmerman should die, get raped in jail, etc. etc. etc.?

Because basically, bigtexxx said that it is not clear it was a hate crime, and we should wait to label it as such until all the facts are out. That was enough for many to label him as a racist, want him mauled to death by dogs, and accuse him of also wanting to murder black people.

 

Seems like a reasonable scenario.

Some race provocateurs are likening this to Emmett Till and that is just insane on so many levels.

 

I am trying to reconcile Zimmerman's statement that he turned to go back to his car and was confronted / assaulted by Martin. I can believe that Zimmerman did turn back but I think it was assault in the physical sense. This would reconcile with Martin's girlfriends testimony that Martin felt he was under threat by someone following him but that he wasn't going to run away. A typical male response to a threat is to confront it and I am speculating that it happened just as Zimmerman believed he had lost sight. This could very easily happen given that it was raining and dark and the moment of confrontation just happened to be an unfortunate coincidence.

I will have to listen to the 911 calls again to determine the timing but trying to reconcile different testimony about who was yelling. In a verbal confrontation leading to a physical fight both would be yelling and depending on the when a witness heard them, when the 911 call was taken you might only heard one. If I recall you hear the scream followed by the gun shot which would fit in with that Zimmerman drew his gun Martin screamed when he saw it, and then Zimmerman fired.

Thanks appreciate it. I am trying to figure out the situation to add to the discussion but also because this is very important towards understanding self-defense.

Are you asking me to defend Bigtexxx?

I think people are getting heated in this thread and it would likely do everyone, not just here, to take step back. That said Bigtexxx and others are clearly stoking the fires. Further given Bigtexxx's posting history its ironic that he is now calling for calm and facts when he has previously not done that.

As for posters saying Zimmerman should die or get raped in jail I don't think he should but keep in mind that such rhetoric unfortunately is the norm for D & D. I have before on occasion called out people of all political stripes for using violent and alarmist language, as Batman Jones can attest to, but I am past doing that and if I did I would never have time to actually discuss this issues.

Anyway people are rightfully angry about this situation. As I said about the New Black Panthers I think putting a bounty on Zimmerman is idiotic and unhelpful but I don't see anything wrong with being worked up about an unarmed boy being killed.

Bigtexx has said more than just that to be labelled a racist. I myself haven't called him one but I agree that he is at least skirting the line. For this case I personally think it will be difficult to prove a hate crime and as I've said I have left race out of my analysis.

 

I don't agree with bigtexx, he just seems like an ignorant bigot to be honest in the way he describes things. That said, I've said that we need to see more of a fair trial and the media these days is biased in everything. I do think that Zimmerman was in the wrong, he should've never CHASED down a kid when even the cops told him not to. But what we don't know is Treyvon martin does not look like the kid the media put out and i hate they made that misleading image. When I saw that, I thought it was some school boy beaten. He was a 6'3, 17 year old kid with multiple tatoos, Gold Teeth, his twitter included the N word and talked about beaten. The reason he was staying with his dad was because he was on a 10 day suspension from school. MAybe there is more to this here?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

 

You guys keep getting hung up on this point. It is irrelevant who threw the first punch.

Zimmerman would NOT be justified for using deadly force if he initiated the contact by yelling obscenities (which is legal) and then Martin got angry and started wailing on Zimmerman (illegal). If Zimmerman wanted to file a civil law suit for damages because of a broken nose ...then may have won that lawsuit. But Zimmerman is NOT justified in using deadly force to protect himself in that situation because he knowingly approached who HE thought was a criminal (his own words) and instigated the confrontation. That is not "standing your ground".

Zimmerman didn't stand his ground.

 

Your scenario seems mostly likely. I just think it should be clarified, that Martin told his girlfriend that he wasn't going to run, but that he would walk fast. That is different than confronting the problem

 

Trayvon Martin very well might've looked like and done everything that you say but that still doesn't mean he deserved to be shot. One thing that I find unsettling with situations like this is the argument for the defense often follows the same strategy of rape trials. They start turning on what the victim looked like, how they acted and their past. Martin might not have been an Eagle Scout but none of that means that he automatically should be considered suspicious and worthy of being tailed. Especially by someone with no official position and very little training to do so.

 

I agree that Zimmerman would most likely not be justified in using deadly force, but it is not irrelevant who threw the first punch. It might be relevant to determine if Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. Whether the means he used to defend himself (deadly force) were appropriate is a separate question.

 

"Walking fast" is difficult to determine exactly how fast he was moving. Obviously he wasn't moving fast enough to get completely away from Zimmerman but anyway under FL law he is under no compunction to do so.

My own read on the situation is that Martin didn't plan on confronting Zimmerman but once he felt that Zimmerman was in very close proximity to him he turned and addressed him. This might've been due to a verbal provocation from Zimmerman but from my own knowledge the general male reaction is to turn and face a potential danger when it comes in close proximity.

 

I don't see you condemning any of those racist black Panther bastards, but you are sure all over bigtexxx, myself and others who don't want to play your little game of selected outrage.

Here is a little video that I hope you enjoy, and there is nothing more that I like than watching those black thugs beating the crap out of you and your hypocrite lefty buddies. I won't take my gun out like that good Samaritan in the video but simply chill and enjoy an ass beating by your favorite protected minority.

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[rquoter]Still, Trayvon had nonviolent behavioral issues in school, and on the day he was killed, he had been suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/22/3507783/trayvons-parents-paint-portrait.html#storylink=cpy[/rquoter]

He got shot on a Sunday night. I wonder how he got suspended on a Sunday?