Arab spring continued: Tunisia arrests 3 journalists in morality dispute

Nowhere in your idiotic post is there any evidence that American authorities tortured and murdered a prisoner that had already been detained.

 

So the "World Socialist Website" is where you get your news from?

The author, Tom Eley, how much credibility does he have?

All he does is come up with articles which smear the USA - pieces like this:

“The consequences of a US war crime:
Cancer rate in Fallujah worse than Hiroshima,”
Tom Eley, World Socialist, July 23, 2010
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jul2010/fall-j23.shtml

Tom Eley, “Washington shuts door to Haitian refugees” Global Research, February 8, 2010.

Victim of FBI Raid Speaks Out
by Tom Eley
Global Research, October 2, 2010
World Socialist Web Site - 2010-09-30

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The guy makes a living out of creating conspiracy theories, he is clearly a left-wing extremist.

But anyway, all your own attempts to smear the USA are just means to distract from the fact that the Arab spring that has been hijacked by Islamists has so far failed to produce stability, due process, fair justice, freedom of expression, freedom from torture, freedom from religious oppression, freedom from murders in jail.

 

Thanks, I just read that. Nowhere does any of the links you provided contain any proof that the CIA murdered people. If it happened, obviously, it is wrong. The report speaks of "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding, which I disagree with. But there are significant differences - not that it makes it right - but there are differences:

1) It makes a difference whether something is done to coerce someone into giving up information in order to save thousands of lives or whether someone is just tortured out of revenge. As I said, I am still against any physical violence.

2) The Libyan prisoners (at least 12 of them in a very short timeframe, probably many more) were brutally tortured to death. Again, nowhere in your links is there any proof that anything like that was done by US authorities. If such excesses indeed happened, they are obviously wrong. But there is no such proof, as much as you seem to want to pretend that Libyan Islamists are on the same moral level as the US Government, which is a ridiculous assertion in itself.

But they are not the same, as much as you try to paint it that way.

I wouldn't call the USA the champion of human rights. But to continuously try and pretend they are on the same moral level as Islamists who torture people to death in prison cells says a lot about you and what you are trying to do here.

I never said I wish for a process demanding democratic rights to fail. On the contrary, I am pointing out the very real danger that an originally hopeful process of demanding democratic rights may already be in danger of failing because of being in the process of being hijacked by extremists who are no better than the dictator they replaced. What I am saying is that we need to be very mindful of this very real danger, and that there are plenty of examples already to indicate that the plight of the ordinary people in the Arab world is still going on, with basically one evil having replaced another evil.

Being observant and cautioning people of the danger of Islamist militias turning bad into worse when there are very real indications of exactly that happening is much better than pretending everything is rosy for ideological reasons, like you are doing it, and downplaying every evil that is done in that area by trying to pretend that the USA are just as bad. That is a typical left-wing technique, which has for decades helped leftists to justify and downplay terrible crimes committed by leftist dictators and murderers.

If you don't believe me, perhaps you will believe Amnesty International (of whom I am a paying supporter).

http://www.amnesty.org/zh-hant/node/29746

15 February 2012
Libya: 'Out of control' militias commit widespread abuses, a year on from uprising

Armed militias operating across Libya commit widespread human rights abuses with impunity, fuelling insecurity and hindering the rebuilding of state institutions, warned Amnesty International in a new report released today, a year on from the start of the February 2011 uprising.

The report Militias threaten hopes for new Libya, documents widespread and serious abuses, including war crimes, by a multitude of militias against suspected al-Gaddafi loyalists, with cases of people being unlawfully detained and tortured – sometimes to death.

African migrants and refugees have also been targeted, and revenge attacks have been carried out, forcibly displacing entire communities – while the authorities have done nothing to investigate the abuses and hold those responsible to account.

“Militias in Libya are largely out of control and the blanket impunity they enjoy only encourages further abuses and perpetuates instability and insecurity,” said Donatella Rovera, Senior Crisis Response Adviser at Amnesty International.

“A year ago Libyans risked their lives to demand justice. Today their hopes are being jeopardized by lawless armed militias who trample human rights with impunity. The only way to break with the entrenched practices of decades of abuse under Colonel al-Gaddafi’s authoritarian rule is to ensure that nobody is above the law and that investigations are carried out into such abuses”.

In January and early February 2012, Amnesty International delegates visited 11 detention facilities in central and western Libya used by various militias and at 10 of these locations, detainees said they had been tortured or ill-treated en situ, and showed Amnesty International injuries resulting from recent abuse. Several detainees said they had confessed to rape, killings and other crimes they had not committed just to end the torture.

At least 12 detainees held by militias have died after being tortured since September. Their bodies were covered in bruises, wounds and cuts and some had had nails pulled off.

Individuals held in and around Tripoli, Gharyan, Misratah, Sirte and Zawiya told Amnesty International they had been suspended in contorted positions; beaten for hours with whips, cables, plastic hoses, metal chains and bars, and wooden sticks; and given electric shocks with live wires and taser-like electro-shock weapons.

At a detention centre in Misratah an Amnesty International delegate saw armed militia members beating and threatening some detainees whose release had been ordered. An older detainee from Tawargha was cowering, squatting against the wall, and crying as he was being kicked and threatened by a militia member who told Amnesty International that “those from Tawargha will not be released or we’ll kill them”.

In an interrogation centre in Misratah and Tripoli Amnesty International found detainees who interrogators had tried to conceal and who had been severely tortured – one so badly that he could hardly move or speak.

Not a single effective investigation is known to have been carried out into cases of torture, even in cases where detainees died after having been tortured at militia headquarters or in interrogation centres which are formally or informally recognized or linked to the central authorities.

“Militias with a record of abuse of detainees should simply not be allowed to hold anyone and all detainees should be immediately transferred to authorized detention facilities under the control of the National Transitional Council.”

No investigations have been carried out either into other grave abuses, such as the extrajudicial execution of detainees and other war crimes, including the killing of some 65 people whose bodies were found on 23 October in a hotel in Sirte which served as a base for opposition fighters from Misratah.

Militia members are seen on video footage obtained by Amnesty International hitting and threatening to kill a group of 29 men in their custody. One is heard saying “take them all and kill them”. Their bodies were among those found three days later at the hotel, many with their hands tied behind their back and shot in the head.

The Libyan authorities have so far taken no action against the militias who have forcibly displaced entire communities – a crime under international law. Militias from Misratah drove out the entire population of Tawargha, some 30,000 people, and looted and burned down their homes in revenge for crimes some Tawargha are accused of having committed during the conflict. Thousands of members of the Mashashya tribe were similarly forced out of their village by militias from Zintan, in the Nafusa Mountains. These and other communities remains displaced in makeshift camps around the country while no action has been taken to hold the perpetrators accountable or to allow the displaced communities to return home.

“The blanket impunity afforded to militias is sending the message that such abuses are tolerated and is contributing to making such practices accepted practice. Individuals responsible for abuses must be held to account for their actions and removed from positions that would allow them to repeat such abuses.” said Donatella Rovera.

“It is imperative that the Libyan authorities firmly demonstrate their commitment to turning the page on decades of systematic violations by reining in the militias, investigating all past and present abuses and prosecuting those responsible - on all sides - in accordance with international law.”

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Yeah, but you go ahead and keep downplaying these widespread abuses by saying "Hey, democracy is a process, it's ok, ATW you are just criticizing this because you hate Islam, plus, why are we even talking about this, some CIA officers allegedly waterboarded some people".

 

I didn't say that I think it was wrong to help them. And I didn't label "the Libyans" as Islamists, but it is a well-known fact that Islamists make up a significant part of the rebel militias.

 

Islamists blamed for killing General Abdel Fattah Younes as Libya's rebels face up to enemy within

The credibility of Libya's rebels suffered a blow when they were forced to acknowledge that Islamists within their ranks killed their chief battlefield commander last week. (...)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...as-Libyas-rebels-face-up-to-enemy-within.html

Libyan authorities give rebel militias two weeks to hand in weapons

He was backed by the new prime minister, Abdulrahman al-Keib, in a move that will be seen in part as a victory for Islamists. Although everyone agrees that the militias must go eventually, the decree would see the powerful, largely secular Zintan and Misurata Brigades depart, leaving the capital in the hands of the Tripoli militia led by Libya’s most powerful Islamist, Abdulhakim Belhadj.

http://www.shabablibya.org/news/libyan-authorities-give-rebel-militias-two-weeks-to-hand-in-weapons

Islamists take aim at Libya rebels' secular leaders

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/13/world/la-fg-libya-factions-20110914

Islamists' role evolving in Libya

Islamists represent about a fifth of the Libyan Transitional National Council, and Islamist militias have ransacked military weapons caches, controlling neighborhoods and taken over prisons and government offices, says Walid Phares, author of The Coming Revolution: Struggle for Freedom in the Middle East and an adviser to the Anti-Terrorism Caucus in the U.S. House of Representatives.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-08-31/Islamists--evolving-role-in-Libya/50209166/1

etc. etc.

 

Bugger I'm drunk.

 

Nope.