Kevin Love says Kobe is the best player in the game

What credit have I given him? I readily admit he choked in the Finals. My point is guess what....so did some of these other guys that you say are clutch before they finally led a team to a title....which occured after their 9th season. If they can rebound from the horrible examples that I listed than so can LeBron. Yes, he choked last year. Similar to other players choking before they finally led teams to a title.

FYI, check Kobe's numbers from the Finals during the 3-peat. They aren't that great.

And now that I read your post again, if LeBron does lead a team to a title this season then how is it ridiculous to note that he led his team to a ring before Dirk or Kobe did? It's the truth. It takes most guys a while to lead a team to the promised land. Magic, Bird and Duncan got it done immediately, with lots of help at that, but I will still give them credit. It took Shaq a long time. It took Jordan a long time (I believe 8 years). It took Kobe and Dirk a long time. It took our beloved Hakeem a long time. It's not easy. You guys are killing a dude who may possibly lead his team to a championship faster than lot's of other great players. Enjoy the journey....

 

I don't need to check them I know how he played and that's why I only talked about the third one. First one was awful, second was ok i guess and third one was superstar performance at the age of 24 and to me that's when Kobe arrived.

You point to the 2004 finals as proof that Kobe chocked but come on man lets be real about that situation. Kobe was going through a rape case and had the worst year of his career minus his first 3 years. That team as a whole was a mess and Kobe was not himself.

As far as 2008 goes Kobe wasn't great but he was playing against a great Celtics defense. Go back and take a look at how Jordan performed against some the Jazz who had some really good defensive teams and you will see that **** shooting numbers were much lower than they were for the season as a whole. Kobe didn't play great in 08 but against such a great defense it was by no means terrible.

Bron Bron on the other hand was getting D'ed up by old @$$ Kidd and Marion against a not that great Dallas defensive team. The situations really aren't comparable if you look at the circumstances. Lebron was given the perfect opportunity to dominate and he just flat out choked.

Dirk I'm not arguing because he was given the chance to be the lead man from the get go just like Lebron. For Kobe it's ignoring the circumstances of his career which was not being the lead guy for a long time. Once he was handed the keys to the Lakers he won a title in 5 years.

Also, if Wade or Bosh plays better in the playoffs did Lebron still lead his team to a ring?

 

You are trying to have it both ways. You are saying Kobe wasn't the man because he had Shaq but at the same time counting those years against how long it took him to lead a team to a title. If you don't want to give Kobe credit for the Shaq years that is fine but then you have to say it took him 5 years to lead his team to a ring. Giving no credit for the Shaq years and counting them against him is stupid.

 

once again, go back and watch that season, pippen was THE closer, that is why that game was controversial and you only remember that game, bc for one game the coach chose someone else ot throw off the defenses, plain and simple...if that whole season they didn't go to him consistently, than your logic stands, but it simply doesn't. Throughout the season it was pippen, every game and season has anomoly's, that is with anything really, but you don't hold weight if it is not a consistent thing. ALl those bulls players, lakers players etc, they all know who the closer is and most of the time they go with them. For the heat, its become apparent its heat, and on the biggest stage lebron has shied away everytime. Lebron is averaging 19 points in 40 percent shooting in both finals appearances, its not just a bad game or two, he hasn't had one game in fact and just seems to watch wade...dude needs a psychologist.

 

Kobe had one of his worst games as a pro in that game 7 against the Celtics 2 years ago. Lebron will get his. He's the same age as Jordan was when Jordan won his FIRST ring. Nobody here on this bbs predicted the heat to be in the finals last year. There was even a thread in here that claimed that the cavs were better than the heat. Everyone predicted the Celtics would be the heat and they got destroyed - then nobody expected the Heat to beat the Bulls and Lebron destroyed and humiliated D. Rose. What Lebron and the heat accomplished last year was unbelievable seeing as to how they had never played together before.

2012 and beyond belongs to the king. 5-6 championships, easily.

 

Jordan won the ring in his 7th year and never lost a finals. Don't compare Lebron to the GOAT by picking out that they might win their first title at the same age because it doesn't tell the whole story. Kobe got his first at age 22 but that in no way makes him better than Jordan or even Lebron for that matter.

 

So you are willing to give him a pass for his first 2 but not LeBron? What if the Heat get back to the Finals and LeBron plays great. Then what...he will have finally played great in the Finals in his 3rd trip...just like Kobe??

That's your reasoning for him choking. You are just excusing it. Bottom line is he played horrible. No one is excusing LeBron for playing like garbage while a teammate was "supposedely" banging his mom, right? Either you produce on the court or you don't, and Kobe shot his team out of the Finals in 2004. Period.

Is playing against a great defense now an excuse for not performing? He played like garbage, period. Again, you are just trying to excuse why for whatever reason. Jordan didn't play like garbage against Utah. He shot poorly but made multiple game-winning plays during both of those series. The 2nd series ended with him getting a steal and hitting the series winning shot. Please don't make that comparison ever again.

LeBron choked. No one is denying that. He was as passive as passive can be, or shall I say as passive as Dirk could be in 2007.

Yes, AFTER blowing a 3-1 series lead and blowing it in the 08 Finals. And truth be told, this is only LeBron's 2nd season with the type of supporting talent that most title teams have.

LeBron is basically leading the team in almost everything and it's been that way since he came to Miami. If they win a title I highly doubt it will be because they deviated from their forumla. The team can't win a title without Wade playing well, just like most teams wouldn't win a title if their 2nd option didn't perform (see LA with Gasol last postseason), but LeBron does more for that team than anyone else on their roster. It's no surprise that Miami was able to advance past Chicago with Wade playing like garbage but once LeBron dissapeared they lost.

 

Go back and watch the 2011 playoffs. For the majority of the playoffs, LeBron was the closer. Another poster has already listed almost every playoff game for you. Did you not see that post? Yet you focus on what you choose to focus on. If I can't count what happened in every playoff round up until the Finals for LeBron then how on earth can you count what Pippen did in the regular season? When it mattered most for Chicago the coach took the ball out of his hands, which is why he quit at that moment.

LeBron has played like garbage in the Finals. No one is denying that.

 

In that case we can only say it's been one year for LeBron because he has only had 1 season with the type of supporting cast that most championship teams have. Right??

 

wait, I choose what to focus on? Do you realize while people emphasize the finals, because that is the biggest stage, most pressure, and that is what takes the most to win there, plain and simple...you are comparing that to one random game for pippen in what was meant to be a trick play Phil Jackson drew up? I don't know how old you are but if you saw the rest of the series in the playoffs, IT was Pippen again in the clutch that they want to, once again you are just picking one game, and the rest of teh game in that series go toward what I was saying. And on the biggest stage, the most important stage, that is why everyone refers to it, not just randomly chosing any series, this is the NBA finals, the culmination for what everyone plays for, and he falls silent, heck looks scared to shoot out there and luckily has dwade to bail him out. A great player, but missing something in the mental psychological aspect of bball which is apart of greatness

 

Lebron gets a pass for the first finals because he was very young just like Kobe was in the first two. Last year Lebron was in the prime of his career so no pass.

My statement was about the year as a whole. He wasn't himself for the entire year. Same can't be said for Lebron but you are right at the end of the day Kobe didn't perform.

I brought up shooting percentages for a reasoning. Against some good defensive teams Jordan struggled shooting the ball and against a good Celtics team so did Kobe and that is the end of that comparison. Kobe was awful in that series but he did get out played by Pierce.

I'm not really arguing Dirk so sure.

Ok so if we are playing that game Kobe won it his second year after getting Gasol which gave him title team talent so if Lebron wins it this year its a tie?

You didn't answer the question.

 

Not at all. Lebron has had teams built around him his whole career. Kobe had his built around him starting in 2004. If you are using the test of when the player got talent Kobe's clock doesn't start running until halfway through the 07-08 season when he got Pau. So Lebron will lose that race by half a season.

 

Ok, so since it's all about the Finals, using your logic am I right in noting that the following players who won Finals MVP were "the man" for their teams in the following seasons:

2008 - Paul Pierce - Celtics (instead of KG)
2007 - Tony Parker - Spurs (instead of Duncan)
1989 - Jue Dumars - Pistons (instead of Zeke)
1988 - James Worthy - Lakers (instead of Magic)
1985 - Kareem - Lakers (instead of Magic, since he did finish 2nd in MVP voting)
1981 - Cedric Maxwell - Celtics (instead of Bird)

 

"teams", not teams good enough to win. But even then, fine, it took Kobe 5 seasons and 2 Finals failures before he could lead a team to a title. Better?

 

No 5 seasons and one finals failure. The clock starts running during the 04-05 season after Shaq left.

 

IIRC, Kobe was the leading scorer for the 04 team that lost to Detroit. He tried to be the Alpha dog in the Finals and failed.

 

You do realize Shaq was hurt off and on for a lot of that season so his minutes were down and as a result his points. In that finals Shaq was still the leading scorer. The Lakers weren't Kobe's until Shaq left.

 

Was he hurt in the Finals, when Kobe tried to take over alpha dog status (led teams in shots, and I don't believe it was close) and they lost? He shot them out of the series.

 

Shaq played in all the finals games and led the team in scoring. That team was a mess with the additions of GP and Malone all year but it was still Shaq's team at the end of the day. If who shoots the most decides whose team it is the Heat belonged to Wade last year.

Arguing that Kobe didn't start his career as the center of a team during the 04-05 season is pretty ridiculous. That 03-04 team was not the Kobe Lakers at all.

 

Kobe has 5 rings 3 as a main contributor and 2 as the main man. lBJ has zero and regardless of how talented he may be, he reminds me of Tmac. potential to be great but balls the size of skittles.