Misleading, irrelevant, and a little simplistic to focus on clothing. Possibly even counterproductive as Turkey probably sets the standard for secularized, predominantly Islamic countries. Feel free to keep them out of the EU, though.
1930-2011 Turkey PM Erdogan apologises for 1930s Kurdish killings The Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has apologised for the killing of more than 13,000 Kurds by the Turkish military in the late 1930s. 23 November 2011 ---but yes, two pictures of clothing are DEFINITELY the complete measure of everything.
Ha you can find both of those pictures here in the states, no? Speaking of this mentality of generalization...I found this interesting study about people who prefer simple minded thought procecess like the pictures above http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/intelligence-study-links-prejudice_n_1237796.html?ref=mostpopular
On this note, why do Westerners care so damn much about clothing styles and restrictions? You all keep looking at the hijab like it's a sexist article of clothing (which it arguably is), but why does a mini-skirt and booty shorts get a pass? As long as it's fun to look at it's okay if it's objectifying? Why can't Islamic clothing be just as fashionable, why is it that wearing revealing clothing is the only expression of sexuality? I remember reading about this interview with an Iranian woman, I forget who she was but she had a considerable post, I think, in pre-revolution Iran, and she said that one of the worst things about the revolution is that women are no longer allowed to wear Western clothes. Really? That's one of the worst things? The ability to wear mini-skirts and tank tops is what you measure your freedom by? Garbage.
...to be fair, if your dates are accurate the women must be close to 100 years old in that second picture. So, they seem to have aged really well...and often people do dress a little more conservatively as they get older...
i think they officially changed the name from Constantinople to Istanbul in the year 1930 but some have been calling it Istanbul since the Ottoman days. Same thing happened in Bosnia. Sarajevo was kind of like a mini Istanbul or Jerusalem before the civil war in the 1990's. There were Serbs, Croats, and Muslims and Sarajevo had the most mixed marriages in all of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavians were somewhat religious but they didn't let it get in the way of friendship and people always put Yugoslavia first. Religion in Bosnia consisted of drinking rakija and hanging out with your neighbors and family. Before the war, Muslims had no problem eating pork and you would never see a woman wearing a vale or headscarf. During the war, many Muslims from Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern countries came to fight and finance the Muslims of Bosnia. With them they also brought the extremism that Bosnia hasn't seen. Of course religion whether it was Christian Orthodox, Catholic, or Islam was what the politicians pinned on us as a reason to kill each other regardless if we all spoke the same language, ate the same food, and liked the same soccer teams. I have to say that the Muslims came the hardest with conservative views and ideals. I went back to the town I was born in this past summer, Sanski Most, Bosnia and I saw people with beards, veils, and some stopped eating pork. It is shocking because this is all very new to the region. Although, it is an uphill battle. Most Bosnian Muslims do not condone these views because it is not native to the region. I even saw some women dressing very revealing to say the least. Maybe this is a way of protesting. What matters most is that I got along with most people there, regardless of religious or political differences.
Maybe you should read up a little bit on how aggressively the Islamist Erdogan is denying the historical genocide Turkey committed against Armenians.
I heard Turkey is the freest Islamist state in trems seperation of reliogion and politics. Also, I believe other culture needsto be respected. If people there want to be conservative adhering to their religious roots, so long as thats the choice of majority and minoritys rights are respected, their choice shouldnt be judged according to Wests perspective. There is no one single standard where the human race should be.
Lets see. Up until the rise of the AKP, Turkey was a dirt poor country that was under threat of a military coup at all times. Like it or not, the stability of the AKP has given Turkey incredible levels of economic growth. It wasn't that long ago when Turkey was another bumbling country begging for IMF bailouts for their constant balance payment problems. Second, I can easily go to Istanbul and take a picture of women dressing even more liberally than your 1930s picture. It's not a particularly difficult thing to do. Romanticizing Turkey's past is absurd. Yes its easy to see why you would romanticize Ataturk's secular revolution but that doesn't erase the economic ineptitude and instability of past governments. You're falling prey to the exact same trap that past Middle Eastern dictators pulled. People like Mubarak and Ben Ali in Tunisia did the exact same thing. Both claimed to be the defenders of secularism to the West while instituting brutal dictatorships while claiming that if we don't keep them in power, the religious fanatics will take control. And all the while, by denying basic rights to the people, you empower the only group capable of mass organization, the mosques and in turn increase the organizational capacity of the Islamic clergy. It is no shocker why religious parties won elections in Tunisia and Egypt. They were the ones that knew how to organize and drive turnout. They've been the only ones with the ability to for decades because we bought into the silly myth that the dictators there were the defenders of secularism when all they did was empower those that they were there to stop. Mubarak acted like he was pushing the cause of secularism by keeping alcohol legal and acting like a peace broker with Israel while at the same time state run TV is airing propaganda about Israel and the United States. You need to stop with the romantic notions of what the Middle East was. Propping up dictatorships and unstable governments (which we did in Turkey as well) is not a successful strategy. Aside from denying people basic rights, that anger only gets channeled to the religious establishment. Turkey's road by electing the AKP is far preferable to the madness that is the rest of the Middle East. And bear in mind, the AKP has had an easier road because the CHP (Ataturk's party) still acts like its the 1930s and is probably waiting for a military coup to install it rather than campaigning properly like a normal political party. So instead of crying about the AKP, how about you go complain about how incompetent the CHP is because they're the biggest problem right now. When the CHP starts acting like a real political party again, then Turkey will have some real choice.
In the early 20th century, Turkey was busy committing those atrocities deliberately bombing civilian towns. Nowadays, it has taken a book out of the "American" book of warfare and causes "excessive collateral" damage with a "recognized terrorist group" in the background. These can't be recognized as atrocities anymore, and so it is merely covering up past atrocities (Armenia), just like how the Americans classified documents of deliberate civilian massacres in Korea. progress in the western model! ...but yeah, let's compare color and black-and-white pictures, that's so much fun.
That's true...still. I haven't really instituted a brutal dictatorship yet . I agree with most of your assessments. I appreciate your serious reply, but quite frankly, I just stumbled upon this picture on Facebook because one of my contacts liked it and it appeared in my news feed. I cannot find the original link anymore, but there was a lengthy discussion in Turkish below it, so I thought it would be "interesting" to get people's thoughts on the picture here. Not more, not less .
...and that's just the way it is <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EHWWodjiIqs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Thank you for some interesting perspective from someone who has seen first-hand that Islamist influence is being transported to Europe. Turkey is in the middle of a struggle between freedom and Islamism. Right now, it is all sugarcoated by economic success. But the Turks need to be careful and mindful of the Islamist influence, because otherwise you will not see nice pictures like robbie380 posted them anymore in 10 or 20 years. I won't re-post the whole article here, but there is an interesting article by Prof. Bassam Tibi about this (from winter 2009). http://www.meforum.org/2047/islamists-approach-europe
Perhaps moreso the freedom to dress how they want as opposed to 'wearing mini-skirts and tank tops'. How would you feel if you were told what was acceptable to wear and not allowed to dress as you used to?
