If hypothetically all religion god-based religions were proven false...

I'll take this ivy leaguer, noble prize winner, brightest mind's take

over this one's...


...not so sure the essence of religion lies with your definition of young earth -- but I'll leave that debate to our religious weenies should they feel it worth their while. But I do think some of y'all are giving religious intolerance a run for its money...

 

The problem I have with your accusations is that you assume that all these theories are swallowed hook, line and sinker by anyone who considers themself to be "religious." I don't even like the word religious very much; it has too many human fingerprints on it.

Throughout human history, in every endeavor, the most revered individuals have been both right and wrong when judged by history. It's only in retrospect that we have any degree of assurance.

 

Indeed, when it comes to the origins of life and the universe, you are indeed uneducated and ignorant on the subject. And if you know/are aware of the evidence regarding the subject, and you choose to believe that which is known false, then I consider you a fool. Surely you would consider the same of anyone else under the circumstances.

Doing a little research? You mean like devoting an inordinate amount of time (certainly compared to your average person, if not everyone on this BBS) for a lay-person to this subject? Trust me, I've considered and observed this subject quite critically from all sides for a very long time. I would not speak for so many years on this BBS so ardently about it if I hadn't.

My response isn't "I'm right you're wrong". My response is "I'm right because of XYZ, you're wrong because of ABC."

"Scientific attitude", lol, that's a good one. Yes, science has a 'tude man. Totes. I'm speaking in very plain, matter of fact terms. If that's an attitude to you, then so be it. Mind you, you're the one who said *I* was wrong first. And rest assured, humankind has been coming up with new evidence all the time to show you, and will continue to do so. So no worries about "coming up with something new".

I don't really care what diploma you do or don't have or what school you did or did not go to. Makes no difference to me. The knowledge is out there, a huge breadth of information that describes the origins of life and the universe. You have apparently chosen to either ignore or deny it. That doesn't constitute effort to me. Well, effort to ignore or deny these things, maybe. Certainly not a way of living worthy of respect.

Telling me nicely to f*** off, quaint. Who is the one with the attitude problem now? It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement, we have proof of such things, you ignore them. That is behavior worthy of belittlement. And trust me, if you think I'm being offensive by calling you "ignorant/uneducated" for not knowing certain things, then you need to toughen up a little bit. That's about the nicest way I can put it. And yes, ignoring knowledge is foolish. Sorry, that's also the most plain way I can put it.

This is a total strawman, but I'll go ahead and humor it. You realize that Abrahamic faiths constitute the vast majority of religions in practice today, right? You also realize that the OP (and my post) was addressing, specifically, religions which deal with god-like figures, right? Ergo, we were speaking to the idea of the omnipotent/infallible. Which has been proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, false, many times over.

 

It only makes sense to address the young earth theory, since it is a central part of Abrahamic faith, which is the dominant religious force on earth. But it could be a rose by any other name, really. The OP said "god-based", when I hear that, I think infallible/omnipotent, which automatically trips the "false" wire.

 

Even if they aren't, it doesn't matter. The OP said god-based, so that's what I'm speaking to. I'm only using the young earth stuff as a touchstone to relate things back to the most popular religions on earth at the moment, and certainly the most (perhaps only) religions represented on this BBS.

 

First of all...evidence? No. What you are referring to is physical observations - and theories based on them. They match your worldview, and you believe them to be facts - but we're never going to invent a device that allows us to go back in time and view the big bang.

Oh, and the big bang? Another theory based on lots of guys looking in telescopes and coming up with ideas. It's the best explanation they could come up with, but saying that that everything was contained in this one little point, and then it exploded, causing a chain reaction that created the universe?

George Michael had it right - ya gotta have faith.

From my point of view, your average atheist doesn't believe in a god or gods. So he needs an explanation for stuff. We exist, and the universe exists - so regardless of how unlikely it is that we developed from tiny one-celled creatures, and that life itself came from the combination of amino acids in a primordial soup, we are here so it must have happened like that.

Atheist A believes in evolution and the Big Bang. I believe in God. Do I know that he didn't use evolution to shape the creatures on the planet? No. Do I know where he came from? No.

Do I have the arrogance to assume that we know the real answers? Nope. Basically I know just enough to know that we don't know anything, and life is a big mystery - so you might as well enjoy yourself and try and live a life that will leave you without regrets.

 

group marriage was the norm til the concept of paternity ruined everything.

take me away to your utopia, dubious.

 

Did you ever think of the poissibility that Evolution was the Means that
God used to make Man?

If I said . . . I made a Cake
You say . . NO YOU DIDN'T You mixed it , put in an oven, and removed from the heat at the right time . . . but you made batter . . THE OVEN *MADE* THE CAKE

Which of us is right?



Rocket River

 

the root of the thread was whether one would maintain his or her faith if it was proved wrong -- a hypothetical the original poster concedes is literally impossible to do. It's a bit of a stoner question, really.

From that we get a specific framing the key tenets of religion and why it's already been proved wrong and how one must be ignorant or uneducated not to agree..... and posts on the correlation between stupidity and faith.

Yet...I know too many really intelligent, and insightful people who do embrace religion. I'm not smarter then they are. I don't judge them for it. The practice of religion hasn't been a key part of my life -- but I've no need disprove or discredit it or them. I don't have to accept their beliefs...but I don't need to dismiss them either.

So...if we're talking closed minds....

 

What humanity knows about how the universe works .. . is ridiculously minimal

DonnyMost - You cite evidence etc

The point comes back to my definition of the Atheistic Creed.

IF MAN CANNOT DO IT
IF MAN CANNOT EXPLAIN IT
IF MAN CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT
THEN *NO ONE* CAN
IT IS SIMPLY RANDOM LUCK - Atheistic Creed

Since man cannot make life from nothing
Since man cannot make and mold planets
Since man cannot understand how these are done . . .
well . . .. then no one in the universe can . . . and there for it is just random luck


Rocket River
Atheism - The Religion were MAN IS GOD
or
The arrogance of Man

 

well, the universe IS expanding and that's a fact....so if you go back far enough...

 

Not to me it isn't. We know a lot, I'm proud of us.

This is the worst definition of atheism I have ever heard.

If man cannot explain it, we eventually will. We have a great track record so far.

Luck and randomness have nothing to do with atheism, either. Not sure why you continually insist on saying that.

Understanding the limits of our knowledge is not arrogance. Arrogance is staring knowledge in the face and saying "I know better".

 

I'm pretty sure physical observations are evidence.

No, they don't match my worldview. They shaped my world view. I didn't start out at this point, the evidence convinced me of such because it made sense and was able to be replicated/verified. I believe it to be a fact because it has a damn good case for being true, just as any "fact" should.

Maybe one day. Until then, we have to gather evidence as best we can to make determinations.

Not really sure why you're focusing on the BBT, but we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the young earth theory is false, whether or not the BBT is true, the age of the universe and process that formed it (not where matter came from) is not in question.

George Michael sucks, but I do like Sexy Sax Man.

Err, ok. Not really sure where you're going with this.

God must be infallible. (I mean really, he isn't god if he can screw up, right?)

So, we've found multiple flaws in the design of this earth, universe, and the organisms therein.

Ergo, there is no infallible God. It's a really simple concept. It's not about whether god made evolution, or the universe, it's about whether god can be infallible/all-knowing-powerful. Based on the evidence we have, that particular god cannot exist. So, if you want to believe in a god that makes mistakes or isn't benevolent, go for it, more power to you, I won't stop you.

We do know some real answers. It's not arrogant to recognize that. It's actually quite humbling to embrace knowledge, because only when you understand what we actually know do you fully grasp what we do not know (and more importantly, why).

That sounds like an argument for justifying intellectual laziness, to be honest.

 

To elaborate on this, some people join a religion because they're born into it. Others for fire insurance. And still others because they like the way of life. They might join for some reason and grow into it for another. Or they can grow out of it.

Religion isn't always about rules, punishment or dogma, and that should be fine.

 

Probably my favorite part of religion/god debates is when believers turn to the "how do you know evidence is really evidence?" argument aka the Matrix defense.

 

Hasn't this topic been covered here, like, 64,000 times? We're playing the Lakers tonight, and damn them... damn them all to Hell!! (the Lakers! No, I don't believe in Hell, but the word sure is useful)

 

SamFisher with the effortless fatality. Awesome.

 

Fixed.

 

It's all over your head kid, don't worry about it.