Am I missing something here, Shaq, Dream, Moses > Tim Duncan

All the Great big men of this era had one thing in common

ROBERT HORRY !!!!

Rocket River
*grin*

 

laughable post is laughable.

Charlie Thomas and Steve Patterson had their brain farts, and yes Hakeem supposedly faked an injury to try to get an extension. Hakeem wasn't being shopped around because Rockets didn't think they could win with him, he was being shopped around because him and Charlie/Steve couldn't see eye to eye. Superstars clash with front offices, it happens.

How is it Hakeem's fault that Ray Patterson/Charlie surrounded Hakeem with dogcrap after the 86 finals? This includes the head coach as Don Chaney was in over his head in knowing how to mold a team around a one of a kind player like Hakeem.

In contrast, Tim has always been surrounded by topflight front office and Pops has been his head coach for his whole career. So Timmy has been fortunate to have had a strong foundation from the beginning of his career to the present. Now if you think that doesn't have an impact to what kind of team success you'll have, then you're deluding yourself.

In a way, I compare Tim to Bill Russell and Hakeem to Wilt. Tim and Bill walked into great situations and great coaches who molded great teams around them, thereby having great team success in their careers. Wilt and Hakeem won their titles primarily with their individual brilliances, as they were not fortunate enough like Tim and Bill to have a front office/coach build a dynasty around them.

 

you nor nobody here has explained why hakeem couldn't get out of the first round of the playoffs. heck in five years, in his prime, he couldn't manage more than 1 win in 3 playoff series. 1 win is all he got, and in one series he was swept. remove the finals from the equation, lets talk 1 round exits. if you think that 3 wins in five years, swept 1 year and bounced 4 years, and didn't make it at all one year, shows greatness, be my guest.

accepting that this is part of the argument against hakeem is the first step to a debate, dismissing it, we don't have nuttin to talk about.

 

I can't explain it either

Sincerely,

Buck Johnson
Joe Barey Carroll
Derrick Cheivous

Etc.....

 

These are the Rockets teams you are referring to as the 1st round exits. Who else were on those rosters? Dogcrap players. Joe Barely Cares? Dave Feitl? Buck Johnson? Adrian Caldwell?

And who was the coach throughout all this? Don Chaney. I already told you I thought he was clueless and didn't know how to mold a team around Hakeem. Those first round exits were proof of that. Hakeem got them to the playoffs, did all he could during the playoffs, but Chaney was exposed as a piss poor head coach who just happened to have a superstar player.

To be fair, the building blocks to the championship teams were being put in place in these years; OT, Maxwell, and Kenny. But again, the head coach was still Don Chaney.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1988.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1989.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1990.html

This is the series you were referring to the Rockets being swept in the first round. Wanna know who they went against? The LA Lakers with Magic Johnson who went to the Finals that year. Nuff said.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1991.html

The 92 season was the turmoil season where Hakeem and Charlie/Steve were at odds. Chaney was fired and Rudy took over. Turmoil and uncertainty of the Rockets/Hakeem's future was why they did not make the playoffs that season.

And it was not until 93 did they get out of the 1st round. Who was their head coach that year? That's right, Rudy T.

So you see, team success hinges largely on who else is on the team besides your star player, be it other players or coach. Tim had this benefit throughout his career, Hakeem didn't have that luxury throughout his career.

 

so having those players were the reason he could manage one win, swept and bounced. 5 years . okay.

 

you stick Tim on those teams, and I bet he won't go far either.

 

#1 You said you were done posting in this thread.

#2 The very post you quoted answered your question.

#3 You are looking pathetic and showing weakness. You have been exposed as ignorant. Do yourself a favor and stop posting on this thread. It is becoming borderline painful to watch you dig a hole.

 

just to put this in perspective for you. do you think you could convince anybody that lebron was better than magic? Run down all the numbers, at the end of the day playoff success matters.

you want people that don't believe like you to accept that hakeem was greater than tim based on numbers alone. And that just isn't going to fly. And making excuses for hakeem in the desolate years just seems weak.

if you are a champion you get it done.

I don't think that anybody can doubt that hakeem took his game to another level in the championships years. Was it his teammates that took him to that level? No. Hakeem did it himself. But pragmatically speaking, this also assumes that Hakeem before those championship years wasn't on that level. simple math, and these are the years that are most damning to hakeem's career.

 

Lebron vs. Magic? LMAO. Yes, Magic was the better player, but guess what? His star studded Lakers teammates were way better than whatever the Cavs threw around LeBron. Magic never had to make The Decision in his career, cause The Decision was made when he was drafted by the Lakers.

What I want people to realize is that Tim had the great fortune to be drafted in a great situation that was sustained around him throughout his career. And that Hakeem didn't.

And to correct you, if you are a championship caliber team, you (should) get it done. Again, Tim had this luxury throughout his career, not Hakeem.

Lastly, as a center who needs to be fed the ball, it's more imperative to have good players around and a good coach to devise a system that finds ways to get you the ball. When you have crap players and a crap coach around you, how can you get to the next level?

All this discussion does is reminds me how much ineptitude was going on around the Rockets during the Hakeem years in the late 80's. Charlie Thomas and Ray Patterson did a disservice to Hakeem, and yes I know how important Ray was to the Rockets. And yeah Wiggins, Lloyd, and Lucas share the blame for pissing away their careers and part of the Rockets future for their coke habits. Hakeem should get even more credit for getting those 2 titles in spite of all those.

 

John Starks disagrees.

Arguing that Duncan is on Dreams level defensively is downright laughable.

 

Because the simple fact that EVERYONE NEEDS HELP should be recognized by even basic basketball fans and need not be explained. Kobe Bryant was arguably the best player in basketball from 2005-2009, or at least one of the best. He didn't escape the 1st until he got help again. Wade is the 2nd best SG of his era. He didn't get out the 1st when his teams sucked. We can go on and on. Numerous posters have explained this to you. You are just obviously clueless that "it takes 5".

This thread should have ended when someone posted the opinions of Horry and Elie. what, why are you mote versed on the subject than those two? They only played with both guys.

 

Glad you brought up Elie and Horry. I don't doubt that they called Hakeem the best player they played with. I've conceded the fact, and it has been well-documented, that Hakeem took his game to another level in those playoff final years.

Had Horry and Elie played with Hakeem during the years in question they might have a different opinion. You can never tell. One things for sure, at least when Hakeem dismantled Robinson that that level of basketball few, if any, ever approached. Anybody around in that time would be in awe of Hakeem.

But I think that confusing that Hakeem, and taking that guy to represent the whole of a career is not right. Hakeem just wasn't that guy when he was being bounced in the first round. That's all I am saying.

I think that Duncan obviously had help with Robinson his first few years, but playing against the lakers with all of that talent, two of the greatest to win two of his championships, is a testament to his greatness. Parker and Nobili aren't on that level. Duncan and Co. did it with defense.

 

Duncan and company did it with:

- Defense, including always having another C to guard centers and allow Duncan to not have to go toe-to-toe with Shaq like Hakeem had to do with him, Robinson and Ewing. Duncan's "worst" title cast was the 03 one, and even that team had Robinson to guard Shaq.
- Guards like Parker, Manu, Kerr and S.Jax (2nd title) to hit big shots and close games. Hakeem closed games for us. Parker has a Finals MVP. Manu is considered one of the best closers in basketball because he routinely did this in San Antonio. It wasn't a shock that SA was dominated by LA, with softie Gasol in the pivot, when Manu got hurt in 08. It highlights the biggest discrepancy between Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan. One is not a dynamic scorer.
- Timely play by role players like Horry, who saved Duncans ass in the 05 Finals, when he couldn't dominate the Wallace boys frontline.

I have watched Hakeem get bounced from multiple postseasons when he didn't have enough supporting talent. I have never seen him get bounced because he could be neutralized by the likes of Robert Horry, Horace Grant, old ass Karl Malone or Pau freaking Gasol. Dream would **** on those guys, especially if he had the type of supporting casts that Duncan has always had. As I mentioned earlier, numerous posters have pointed out this discrepancy in team talent to you. You argue to argue but we aren't dumb. Yes, we realize Earl Campbell was better than Franco Harris as well. No, we don't think Sam Cassell was better than John Stockton.

 

And Hakeem was that guy when he was getting bounced in the first round. I mean, he only dropped 38, 17, 3 on 57% in the 88 playoffs. His supporting cast was garbage. Are you arguing Kobe wasn't arguably the best player in the Game in 2006 because he got bounced in the first round? KG was a game changing stud in 2008 but not 2007 (did the Wolves even make the playoffs)? Wade wasn't a top 10 player in 2010 since he lost in the 1st round?

You are smarter than this. Surely you recognize a player can play great and not have enough supporting help to contend for a title. Who can't realize that?? You do realize teams wanted CP3 for a reason, even though he lost in the 1st round last year?

Beyond silly....

 

I conceded early on that I don't knock Hakeem for not making a title run. You need a supporting cast to do that. What I am talking about is how about winning more than a game in the first round, or getting to the playoffs. You can have a bunch of scrubs, and still win more than 1 game. In fact, just getting to the playoffs says that, as bad as you think his supporting cast was, they were good enough to GET to the playoffs. It's on Hakeem that he didn't win more than 1 game in those series.

Speaking of Rudy T, the main thing Rudy gave Hakeem was that he bled enthusaim back into Hakeem. He'd be on the sidelines falling over chairs and tables with every shot. Hakeem, I suspect, had lost a lot of the love of the game until Rudy showed up. Whether that was management's fault, Hakeem's fault or not, it is hard to tell. But those 5 years were a squandering of a lot of years of his career.

 

Excellent posts Icehouse & plutoblue11.

Duncan went down a couple of notches on my list after having seen him struggle against Detroit but more importantly get pushed around by a Karl Malone on his last legs and Pau Gasol. Seriously....Paul Gasol!!! I refuse to put someone who got their ass handed to them by Pau Gasol in a one-on-one situation in the same class as Wilt, Jabbar, Hakeem, and Shaq.

I was equally amused when a poster cited Duncan's most dominant playoff performance against the "defensive stalwart" Kenyon Martin. LOL....Kenyon Martin! Teams wouldnt even think about putting Kenyon Martin on Shaq or Hakeem in the Finals.

When Hakeem went against Shaq in the finals he dropped 30ppg on him. When Shaq switched over to Duncan to cover him one one one, Duncan struggled to score. Enter Manu and Parker. If you do not believe me, just go back and watch the tapes.

 

Well, basketball is a team sport.

In further news, the poster known as 'what', when informed this morning that a basketball is actually round replied, "what?!"

 

Gasol dominated Duncan in 08. The same Gasol that the Celtics pushed around that same postseason. Yes, the same Gasol that most here don't think can fill in as a stud center.

Horry and Grant were able to check Duncan for the Lakers. The same Grant Hakeem laughed at in 95.

Did you ever see the Jazz try to put Karl Malone on Hakeem? The Lakers beat SA by doing this.

I saw, in person (G5 of the 05 Finals), the Wallace boys contain Duncan. Thank God for Robert Horry. Yes, the almighty Wallace boys. FYI, Shaq scored on them at will in 04 (the rare times Kobe gave him the ball) and had no issues with them the next 2 seasons in Miami. On the flip side, I saw Hakeem kill Kareem, Parish/McHale/Walton, Ewing/Oakley/Mason, Robinson/Duncan and Shaq/Grant. Did I mention the guys I saw Duncan struggle with?

Lock this thread please.