Bill Hunter is making sure the lockout doesnt end soon

No way...if decertification is accompanied by voiding of contracts leading to a FA frenzie, it is a complete System Reset. An open market is protected by Anti-trust laws -- complete unregulated capitalism (nod to Raven).

The NBA would turn into European Soccer. All the good players would clump together. At least 4-6 teams would lose in a bidding war and be unable to compete...and would probably fold. This league is roughly 4-6 teams too big, no?

I know about the NFL. Your comments were based on the eventuality of a FA frenzy where everything is voided (contracts, CBA rules, drafts, caps,...everything) and all players are free to pick and choose teams. I know that is unlikely, but didn't you describe such a scenario? Isn't that what we were talking about.

You said, in that scenario, the Haves would not want that type of world. You said only the sucky teams would. That's what I responded to.

 

No - I'm talking about a scenario where all current contracts are voided, but then a new system is put in place. So everyone would be starting over, but there would be new rules.

Like I said, this would never happen - because all the old contracts will be reinstated because the majority of teams will want it. The only teams that wouldn't care if the old contracts are reinstated would be the sucky teams that don't have any good players now anyway. Hope that clarifies.

There's never, ever going to be a scenario where there is just a no-rules setup for the league. The league will remain locked out forever as long as that situation is in effect.

 

OK, you were describing how you expect this to play out. k. I thought you jumped forward to a system-less future.

that said:

This is where decertification gives the players leverage -- anti-trust lawsuit. The league cannot lock them out for ever. If the players decertify and win an anti-trust suit, the lockout becomes illegal -- complete System Reset.

boooooooommmm!

 

OK, there wouldn't technically be a lockout, but no one can make the NBA operate, can they? So if the NBA just doesn't produce a schedule, for example, what happens? Couldn't they just tell teams "feel free to sign players, but we're not playing any games going forward because we don't have an economic model"?

 

The NBA, no. But if the NBA loses it's lockout and refuses to operate, then the big franchises can sue for lack of performance and escape their licensing, bolt and form their on league. 8 teams, like in the beginning.

boooooooom!

That would happen so fast your head would spin.

 

It already is an eight team league, but the fans have been suckered into believing otherwise.

 

Realistically, no, because they have to make money. If they don't organize games, some other business entity will come in, hire all the NBA players (or the best ones) and form a new league to steal all that profit away. They have to do something.

So then what? They have to hire players. If they blackball NBA players and hire scabs, they'll lose a lawsuit on anti-competitive practices. The former NBA players will argue that the teams were colluding to not hire the best available players. But, if they do hire NBA players again without a union, then the teams with the biggest revenues and/or the wealthiest owners will gobble up all the best players and there will be no parity at all. Then no one would bother going to a game in Milwaukee or Sacramento or Minnesota because even the benchwarmers in NY would be better than their stars. You'd have, maybe, 8 viable teams. So all that is a no-go.

So, I think they'd argue to the NLRB instead that this is really the nuclear option and decertification would destroy the business. And the NLRB would not allow a decertification. At that point, the union loses a lot of leverage.

I think the one thing it is good for is that it takes a 45-day bite out of the schedule. The league would get leverage at the end of that 45 days, but if the uncertainty in the interim stalls an agreement long enough, it can kill the season. So, I would not start the decert process until, say, 40 days before you'd have to cancel the whole season for sure. Then, you could negotiate under the sword of Damocles.

 

haha ... but don't say that to Kevin Durant.

anyhow, league is too big. If the last expansion never happened, I doubt we'd be in this lockout right now.

 

There wouldn't even need to be other business entities.

If the NBA office doesn't organize games, that's a breach of contract with their franchises. Dallas, LA, Boston, Chi, Miami, etc could legally bolt with their players and form a small 8-12 team league. And Cuban would organize the defection, very fast, and finally hire competent referees

 

I wonder if he gets paid if there is no union though?

DD

 

There will always be a need for a Player's Association. The PA handles all the player-wide, non-Basketball Related Income and Benefits...like selling their likenesses to game companies. There is a list of things the PA piece of the Union currently handles. The Player's Association part does not get decertified. Some of this might be stolen by the big agents, but for now, he will have a job if he wants it.

But the main thing you are missing is Hunter can't legally be anywhere near a decertification vote; otherwise, it won't pass the Labor Relations Board. He's not part of the choice to do it. The players would do it despite him; and actually, because of him -- see Stackhouse's rant.

 

Isn't it funny how Stackhouse ( a guy out of the league ) has a say....I don't think he even has a vote anymore, does he?

DD

 

Don't want to get off topic in the 'must contain lockout update' thread but just thinking, so the meeting is tomorrow. The pessimist in me asks, why will anything change from the past? Every time they talk BRI, nothing happens and/or talks end. Why should we expect different tomorrow? Players are stuck on 52.5(publicly at least), owners on 50. Neither willing to budge. The optimistic side of me says, now 2 guys(Wojnarowski on Rome, and an agent according to Ken Berger) are saying/reporting that a majority of the players would approve a 50/50 deal. (Woj said something along the lines of privately or off the record or if they were sent into a voting booth, most would approve a 50/50 deal).

I don't know, guess we'll see what happens this weekend.

 

Would the owners, though?

I have no doubt once it got to the general nba population, it would pass. For some reason, I just have a feeling it would get shot down by the owners.

 

Players would approve a 50/50 deal with the current system but that is not even being offered. It is 50/50 with a much more restrictive system or 47/53 owners advantage with a less restrictive system.

Also, nobody knows what will happen with decertification. However, the owners are pushing the players to do so because that is the only leverage they can use. Another thing, I am not sure where this perception came about that the NBA teams will be just fine with a missed season. The NBA owners are not unified at all and if this season gets scrubbed, I think you are going to see some Armageddon on the owner side. The poor mouthers might be loud now but if you think the Lakers are going to be happy losing one of the last Kobe years, the Celtic's losing one of the last years of the big 3, the Magic losing Howard, etc., you must be nuts.

The owners are not pushing in court to void all contracts, they want the court to pre-empt the whole decertification process by declaring their lockout legal regardless of if the union exists or not. The court has already hinted that that crap ain't going to fly.

You want to void all contract? Ok, don't be mad when the Lakers add Paul, Howard and 4-5 of the best college players to their roster because without a draft, it becomes like any other business. Hey, we will pay you $8 million a year to leave college TODAY. So no, there are about 25 owners that want no part of competing in a free market without rules.

Also, do you think the people who caked out $400+ million in the last 2-3 years for a franchise are just going to be happy with their franchise value going to crap? I am pretty sure not only will they sue but the NBA would want no part of any of their dirty little secrets being aired publicly.

So, yeah, I think decertification should have been on the table the minute the owners came back with an offer of 37/63 in June. IMO, the players would be playing now if that had happened.

 

Tremendous read MemphisX. Where have you been!

I only have one comment to add...

I agree; right now, the courts would not declare the lockout illegal anymore than they did in Brady, et al. v the NFL. However, if we lose the season...fast forward to May and I'm thinking a judge might then consider the case different than the Brady precedent, as in, "wow, the employees must be serious to have held out on principle this long...maybe I need to rethink this."

 

But the keyword is profit sharing, so that means those costs should have already been subtracted from the 50-50 deal they are trying to negotiate.

 

Sports league are monopolies and there have been multiple previous cases that stated this. If it goes through the courts based on president the players should win, but we have some wack jobs who have taken over the court system. Frank McCourt who has pretty much ruined the dodgers is going to more than double his investment in like 6 years. Lebron james was worth 100+ million dollars to the cavs. The NBA more than any other league is about the players. When Jordan was in the finals their ratings were in the 20s without him they dropped like 50%.

 

In regards to Billy Hunter, Has anyone else listened to the Bill Simmons podcast he was on recently? In my opinion he was trying to spin the whole thing too much as a Civil Rights issue. You can hear the contempt and audacity in his voice and really sold me on the idea that this thing may not get worked out all year.

 

So LeBron is Rosa Parks? LOL, yeah, if that doesn't rally the public behind the players, I don't know what will.