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libertarian koch brothers support herman cain over libertarian ron paul

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by jo mama, Oct 17, 2011.

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  1. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CEH66V2jMxU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
    #101 jo mama, Oct 27, 2011
  2. glynch

    glynch Member

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    One of the things I find most funny about the new libertarianism that though government is evil nearly per se, they seem to think that state government is somehow more permitted by the libertarian canon.

    I suspect that this comes from the fact that large corporations can better control state governments and often play them off against each other in a race to the bottom on funding for mental health, support for employees hurt while working etc. As with the understandable to them support for the anti-abortion movement by Ron PAul as just a simple political tactic of supporting allies , I suspect the old states rights argument of George Wallace and the Old South is a subtext and Ron Paul is showing coded support for that particular states rights argument.
     
    #102 glynch, Oct 28, 2011
  3. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    you are possibly the only person in the entire universe who thinks that someone who believes life begins at conception and that roe vs. wade should be overturned is NOT pro-life.
     
    #103 jo mama, Oct 28, 2011
  4. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    what i find funny is that you actually think you know what you are talking about. you have made several factually incorrect statements in this thread and when pressed you run away only to pop up again w/ more nonsensical ramblings.

    ive read this paragraph a few times and i think i know what you are trying to say, but i would suggest you work on sentence structure and basic composition. it would be easier to take you seriously if you knew how to properly put words together.
     
    #104 jo mama, Oct 28, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  5. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

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    Personal belief that life begins at conception is irrelevant if you are still going to allow choice. If roe v wade is overturned, for abortion to be illegal, wouldn't states still have to re-criminalize it? (This is why I asked about his view on state laws earlier.) As long as he is not advocating for change at the state level he is still allowing choice.
     
    #105 saitou, Oct 28, 2011
  6. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

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    The way I understand Paul's views:

    1. Personal belief life begins at conception, abortions are bad etc.
    2. Federal gov's powers should be limited

    These 2 views are mutually exclusive, and his actions as an elective official are only informed by view 2, and never by view 1. Overturning roe v wade is because of view 2 not view 1. If he acted according to view 1 as well, the next logical step would be to ban abortions at the state level, but he does not advocate that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
    #106 saitou, Oct 28, 2011
  7. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    again, you fail to understand that not everyone wants to impose their personal beliefs on others.

    again, yes.

    as i have stated over and over and over again, he believes states should decide for themselves and it sounds like if texas was to vote on it he would personally support a ban on abortions.

    he is allowing states to make their own choices - that is consistent w/ his overall view - i dont understand why you are having such difficulty understanding this.

    are you really trying to criticize someone for wanting to follow the constitution over their own personal beliefs? isnt that exactly the kinds of politicians we need more of? people who wont impose their views on others?

    again, i would bet that if it ever came up for a vote in texas he would vote to ban. i cant believe you are having such difficulty with this.:confused:

    how the heck did this thread end up here? what a weird, pointless discussion.
     
    #107 jo mama, Oct 29, 2011
  8. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

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    wrong and more importantly irrelevant (i'm not accusing him of wanting to impose his personal belief on others, nice strawman tho)

    paul can believe in whatever he wants, it's when he claims to be one thing but acts in another way that i have a problem

    no
     
    #108 saitou, Oct 30, 2011
  9. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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    That's not what abortion is about. Abortion is not a "personal" decision because it involves more than one person.

    Saying you don't want to impose your belief on others would be like saying you don't want to stop people from murdering their children if it's their personal belief. Abortion is the intentional extermination of another innocent life, the definition of murder.

    It's not an issue of private moral behavior, it's an issue of protection of individual rights, namely those of the unborn. Libertarianism is all about protecting the rights of the individual.

    The debate surrounds whether the unborn have individual rights.

    If a pregnant woman is kicked in the stomach and her child dies, is that murder?
     
    #109 Commodore, Oct 30, 2011
  10. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    not irrelevant at all - you think that since he does not want to impose his personal beliefs on others he is somehow being disingenuous w/ his ad where he says he is pro-life. your implication is that since he is not calling for a federal ban on abortions that he is being dishonest.

    and talking of strawman, this whole argument over his ad is one giant strawman.

    in what way is he claiming to be one thing but acting in another? paul is alot of things, but inconsistent is not one of them. he has been very consistent in his views on abortion. he is pro-life, but believes the federal government should have no say in the matter, rather it is a state issue.

    it seems like you are. you are putting quite a bit of effort into criticizing the guy for not trying to impose his personal beliefs on others.
     
    #110 jo mama, Oct 30, 2011
  11. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    actually, for paul the debate surrounds whether or not it is a federal or a state issue. paul believes it to be a matter that should be left up to the states and if put to a vote in texas it sounds like he would vote to ban abortions.

    as for libertarians, the official party position is thus...

    http://www.lp.org/platform
     
    #111 jo mama, Oct 30, 2011
  12. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

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    Again, do I have to quote more definitions on what being "pro-life" means? Pro-life=support for legal prohibition of abortion. If he doesn't support this he is not pro-life. According to you, he isn't even advocating for state bans on abortions, he is letting them choose.

    That is not what I am criticizing him for. I don't mind that Paul not pro-life, I mind that he claims to be.
     
    #112 saitou, Oct 31, 2011
  13. glynch

    glynch Member

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    BTW the Gold Standard was tried and it, too, failed.

    OK tells us how it really did not and also tell us how it isn't really "libertarian".
     
    #113 glynch, Oct 31, 2011
  14. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    and it sounds like paul personally supports the legal prohibition of abortion. but in his opinion, it is an issue that should be left up to the states and if put to a vote in texas he would probably be voting to ban abortions. this position is consistent w/ his overall view so i dont see how you can claim he is being disingenuous.

    again, it sounds like he does indeed support a ban on abortions - he just believes it to be a state issue.

    again, you are probably the only person in the universe who thinks someone who says life begins at conception and that rowe vs. wade should be overturned is not pro-life.
     
    #114 jo mama, Oct 31, 2011
  15. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    where did i say anything about the gold standard?
     
    #115 jo mama, Oct 31, 2011
  16. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

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    ok... I misunderstood then, you gave me the impression he was neutral on which way states vote when you replied this:

    so in Paul's world, federal ban on abortions or federal prohibition of bans on abortions = imposing personal beliefs on others/tyranny/attack on liberty. state ban on abortion = protecting liberty of living fetus.

    LOL

    what happened to that stuff about not imposing his personal beliefs on others?
     
    #116 saitou, Oct 31, 2011
  17. glynch

    glynch Member

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    I had to laugh outloud. Libertarians are always nuts about the gold standard. It is the answer to all economic issues.

    I get it. You are a liberal plant making fun of ibertarians.

    Either that or in your own mind only you are the ultimate arbiter of what is "libertarian" and what isn't.
     
    #117 glynch, Oct 31, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  18. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    indeed.

    in pauls world the federal government has no role wrt abortion. that does not mean he was being "disingenuous" w/ his ad. you seem to think paul is the only candidate who has ever made an ad that panders to a specific voting block.

    this all comes back to the fact that you think that one can only be pro-life if they support a federal ban on abortions. if that is your criteria then paul is not pro-life, but you are probably the only person out there who is that specific in their definition of "pro-life". again, the guy says life begins at conception and that rowe vs. wade should be overturned - how could anyone who thinks that not be pro-life?

    LOL at you for trying to make an issue out of a 30 second commercial.

    what about it?
     
    #118 jo mama, Nov 1, 2011
  19. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    again, where did i say anything about the gold standard? you have a serious problem w/ being able to respond to what people are actually saying.

    all you are capable of is putting people in these little ideological boxes of your own creation and arguing w/ them based off of that, instead of what the actual content of their posts. i think it is the main reason why most of your posts are rambling nonsense.
     
    #119 jo mama, Nov 1, 2011
  20. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

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    If he is advocating for state bans on abortion I would consider him pro-life, and I wouldn't consider him being disingenous with that ad. Which was why I asked you whether he was advocating for state bans on abortion to which you initially replied he would let states choose (which I assumed meant he was neutral on which way they chose).

    Why does ron paul want to impose his personal opinion on others at the state level?
     
    #120 saitou, Nov 1, 2011
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