Oh come on, that's not an excuse now. The Copts have faced discrimination in Egypt all the way back to the Byzantine Empire. The Eastern Orthodox church treated them terribly and the Catholics did the same afterwards. When the Arabs came to Egypt, they continued much of the same. I get your larger point but in the case of the Coptic Christians, they really have faced centuries of discrimination and oppression. It wasn't until the 1800s that they really got any autonomy and by that point they weren't even a majority in Egypt anymore. We think of Egypt as largely Arab and Muslim but Egypt was one of the first parts of the world that Christianity spread to. It was the Christians that were denied many of their rights by foreign powers since other denominations of Christianity rejected them and later the Muslims who came to Egypt. Now that being said, dont construe any of this to support cml750's ridiculous statement's about Islam. Also all this talk of cml750 caring about the plight of the Copts is funny considering most other Christian denominations repeatedly took a dump on them when they had the chance.
Why? I'm genuinely curious about what's wrong with their image. I'm an atheist, but if I were to convert to a real religion, it would probably be Islam. What's wrong with their way of worship as opposed to yours.
I think it could be argued that numerous Christian sects have varying interpretations of God and how one comes to Him. I'm still not seeing this apparently specific and agreed-upon criteria that makes someone a Christian, and why members of the LDS faith are excluded from that discussion.
He came here to America which apparently had a history involving Jewish tribes. I'm sorry. I think I was mistaken in using "interpretation" to effectively communicate my idea. Allow me to clarify: Islam and the LDS movement believe in entirely new scripture. Christian denominations all share the same Biblical canon but just have different beliefs regarding some aspects of Jesus' divinity ex. the Trinity, the status of Mother Mary, the actual heir of St. Peter etc. Doesn't change the fact they're worshiping the same guy, though. I don't know about misguided. They probably have the same feelings about Christians.
i don't believe the mormon historical story BUT we also have no archeological proof of zombies. so which is it, do you need proof or not?
1. Christianity has at least one basic specific requirement: Belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God. A lot of other doctrinal disagreements exist, but at the end of the day if you do not believe that Jesus is the son of God, that he died and was raised again, then you are not a Christian. 2. There are pretty stark differences between the Mormon teachings and fundamental Christian teachings that would make them incompatible. A. The Mormon Church does not believe in the Holy Trinity. They believe that God and Jesus are separate beings. Very few Christian denominations fail to accept the trinity teaching. B. The divinity of God: The Mormon Church teaches that God and Jesus are the same as man. The same "species" if you will and that man can become gods in the afterlife, at the level of Jesus Christ, not God the father. To my knowledge, no other Christian faith teaches that man will become gods in the afterlife. The Mormon Church does not believe that God was always the Supreme being, rather that he became such by living a righteous life. They believe that God is flesh and bones. This is a major break from "mainstream" Christian teaching that God is eternal, is not a man, and is the first and the last. Christian faiths believe that "in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." This is a principal disagreement in my mind. To my knowledge there is no Christian faith that would agree with the Mormon teaching that God was man, or at the very least, was not always divine. C. The existence of prophets: The majority of Christian faiths believe that there are no prophets alive today and there will be no more. The word of God is complete and there is no longer a need for divine revelation to prophets to complete the word of God. There are some denominations however that believe in additional prophets so this is in and of itself is not a dis qualifier. Whereas differences on doctrine between a Baptist and a Methodist, or a Catholic and a Lutheran, etc. may be significant, they are still closely related enough to see them as one grouping. They are all spawns of the same basic teachings, the teachings of the Bible. Mormonism itself came about because of a "prophet" (which very few Christian denominations accept as even possible today) receiving a direct message from God and Jesus Christ that all the churches of the world today were abominations and in error and therefore they gave this prophet a new inspired word. The very foundation of the church seems to establish itself as "not Christian." All in all, I am not a theological expert enough to make the call. I think at best Mormonism would be considered a fringe sect of Christianity but is very possibly not Christianity, just having similar tenets.
Mormons DO believe that the Bible is not the only record or scripture that is available to mankind - indeed, one of the tenets of our faith is that "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God" - but I didn't realize that a belief in additional instruction from God was enough to disqualify one from being considered a Christian. In the LDS faith, we believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, and that he died for each and every person on this earth. We believe that because of what he did, reconciliation with God is possible. I'm not saying all of this in some sort of misguided effort to convert you all to Mormonism...only to illustrate that we as members of the LDS Church consider ourselves to be as Christian as it gets - that's why these questions are always so strange to us. As far as the archaeology reference...that's probably a bigger subject than would be possible in a forum such as this, and would be much more enjoyable if it involved someone far more qualified than I - but suffice it to say for myself that I believe that archaeology, like many sciences, is constantly evolving. I think that there are rare examples of entire scientific fields that can be treated as absolutes, and that rather are more organic and constantly developing as new research and knowledge is made known. Even a basic Google search on archaeological references to the Book of Mormon can send back a variety of interpretations of existing scientific research - from "impossible" as you have mentioned to plausible, as others have. But, if the criteria for whether one considers one's self a Christian is rooted in the ideas that additional scriptures or teachings from God can NEVER come forth and that archaeological proof is essential for Christian beliefs, then I will go ahead and say that Mormons are indeed not Christians. However, to quote a book (I think I'm allowed to because my father wrote it), I tend to view the gospel of Jesus Christ like this: A brilliantly cut diamond, when held and slowly twirled in the light, is a thing of exquisite beauty. Light is reflected by some of the facets and absorbed by others, and the gleam of its surfaces combines with its fiery interior to present the viewer with an ever-changing yet always fascinating image. Many different people might look at such a gem, yet each would perceive it a little differently. So it is with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It too is a thing of exquisite beauty, and it too presents its viewers with a multitude of facets, some reflecting light and some absorbing light, never projecting quite the same image, never static, always appearing to change. Yet it is not the Gospel which is changing, but ourselves, for we are always moving, always changing our position, and always capable of seeing familiar things in a new light. It is this relationship between ourselves and the Gospel which makes it possible for us to study it for a lifetime and yet see it anew every day, always gleaning new kernels of knowledge from fields harvested long ago.
SLC you are a Mormon! Please review my post above and correct me. I have always had an interest in your faith but don't know enough about it. I admit to not being an expert but want to learn more! Quote my post and make corrections in red if you don't mind. It's always been hard for me to find a Mormon to talk to about the specifics of their beliefs.
FWIW, this is a major sticking point. Mainstream Christianity does believe that God's word was completed with the Bible and that we now are waiting for the return of Christ. (all sorts of theological debates over tribulation, rapture, etc. could ensue, but basics here) I think the fact that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that he died and was raised again for the sins of man and that through this resurrection a relationship with God is possible makes it hard to say "not Christian." I think the other tenets of the Mormon faith make it hard to say "definitely Christian."
I am indeed, though no longer in SLC...just been around Clutchfans for a while. While I hold no official position to speak for the Church in any ways, I can offer my opinions as to your statements (and maybe some other more qualified Mormons can correct me after that ). On the Trinity - we do believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct personages that, while being one in purpose, are different individual beings. We worship and pray to God the Father, but still hold that Christ was the Son of God. On a belief that we believe that God & Christ are the same - not sure I love how that's worded, but I think that in essence, a lot of what you said is basically accurate. We believe that one of the purposes of existence is to become as much like God & Christ as we can - the scriptural admonition in the New Testament is "be ye perfect", and while we all fall short of that, that's the goal. We do, as you stated, believe that we are created in the image of God, and that he has a physical body. The existence of prophets - again, much of what you said here is correct. We believe that God still has things to share with his children and that communication can take place from God to man (indeed, almost the definition of a prophet). We also believe that individuals, regardless of church membership or standing, can receive answers to their prayers and that this communication still takes place, even daily. We believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the official name of the Church) has at its head a prophet, who is designated to receive these communications as they may pertain to the body of the Church. I guess in conclusion, I wouldn't argue that Mormonism or the doctrines/beliefs contained therein conform to what the majority of those in Christendom believe - there are some marked differences as justtxyank and others in this thread have delineated - but that we as a Church base our hope and faith on Jesus Christ. Personally, I've never really tried to define Christianity as much more than people who believe in Christ, attempt to follow his teachings, and recognize him as the only pathway to salvation - but if sharing more 'mainstream' Christian beliefs is the only way to be considered Christian, then I have no problem altering my view of the term. There is obviously much more that can be said about any of these things, but probably not the best forum for it. Some of these waters can be deep. But I'm always happy to chat about it, although a visit to www.mormon.org or www.lds.org can probably answer other questions, or you can PM me through the board.
That makes sense - and again, I personally had never defined Christian as rigidly as many here - but that could be a me issue. While we also wait eagerly for the Savior's return, I recognize that many of our beliefs may not gel with what much of mainstream Christianity believes. It doesn't really change anything, but there are obviously some substantial differences.
It's interesting, based on the professed faith in Christ as personal savior I think most evangelicals would say you are "saved" yet they would call Mormonism a "cult." At the same time many evangelicals do not believe Catholics are necessarily saved because of their "faith+works" beliefs, yet they do not call Catholicism a cult.
That's a great point. We Mormons are definitely a faith + works bunch. Well, we should be. We're not always so great.
Wait, do Mormons believe your works can get to you heaven? I thought Mormons believed that faith in Christ was the only way to heaven?
I disagree with some of the teachings and scripture behind the Mormons. But I'm a person who believes the overall message of the bible is more important than the minutia. My experience with Mormons has shown them to be incredibly charitable, dedicated, and willing to practice what they preach. Nobody is perfect, but if I look at their works or the fruit they bear, I would say they definitely qualify as Christians.
I don't believe many of the things that Mormons do, but all of those that I have had any dealings with have Christian attitudes, and the same can be said for those responding in this thread.
