Dharocks team is better. Other teams bigs are too slow. Nash orchestrating break with Howard and JR conducting air assaults, Gordon and Anderson shooting the 3. Nash and Dwight pick and roll. Shooters on standby. Gibson and Dwight in paint is super-elite on D. Lack of interior D and athleticism will cause team Lopez love rose to lose.
I don't get the dharocks love. His team has literally two great players and that's it. Spooner's team has more talent, depth, and superiority overall.
Better team defense, better shooting, better low post offense, better low-post defense, better PG at both running the half-court offense or fast break. Spooner's team has more talent top-to-bottom and would win a fantasy league, I'll give him that. I built my team around two complementary superstars and filled it out with role players who fit around them.
Funny, but I see it just the opposite. When I look at your lineup, the star power of Howard and Nash jump out. Spooner has his star power too, but it is his balance that impresses me most. He's got great complimentary interlocking pieces. Kudos to both of you for an excellent job building your teams, but my money would be on Spooner in a 7 game series.
Wow, both of these teams are about as evenly matched as can be. I say dharocks by a hair because his overall team defense is better.
Spooner's team would have to play pressure D and fast break a lot. Love and Lopez would be playing as cleanup guys, not really low post options. Rose and Bease would be the play-makers/first options, and Courtney Lee would have to play out of his mind. This is how Spooner's team would/could win. If you replace Jordan Crawford with Jamal Crawford, then I would say Team Spooner St. would have a better chance, because that team is really missing the knock down shooter needed to space the floor. Ultimately, NBA hoops is about making shots...that overcomes talent when you're able to hit, and hampers talent when you can't. There's too many big-time shot-makers on Team DhaRocks. Nash, Hinrich, JR, Gordon are all great shooters. Butler is a legit on offense, Anderson can hit the 3, and Gibson is no offensive slouch. Nash would deliver great passes to put Howard in the right position to score easily...and Howard already does great on the inside (60% FG in playoffs). In crunch time, double teaming the best player will mean Courtney Lee or Micheal Beasely will have to make big shots. I just don't trust that in comparison to what team dharocks can do.
Both teams have major weaknesses. Steve Nash is the engine in dharock's offense, but Nash only plays 33 mpg. Even if he plays a few extra minutes, he's missing almost an entire quarter. And I'm not convinced that Dwight Howard is a legitimate #1 offensive option. You can't give him the ball 10 feet from the basket and expect him to consistently create. In any case, dharock has said that for 5 mpg, neither Nash nor Howard will be on the floor. 5 minutes is a long time. Spooner's offense is run by Derrick Rose who, despite being the MVP, is very overrated. He's a poor 3 pt shooter and has poor court vision. If the defense packs the paint, gives him space, and cuts off his penetration lanes, then Rose will have a lot of problems. Also, Kevin Love's great rebounding is neutralized by Brook Lopez's horrible rebounding. Spooner should probably start Rose/Lee/Moute/Love/Lopez and bring Beasley off the bench. Overall, I'd say that spooner's team would beat dharock's, but my team would beat both of theirs.
Why feed it down low to Howard when he can be used in the pick n' roll with Nash? What Nash did with Stoudemire and non-superstars like Gortat/Lopez, imagine what he can do with Howard. Gordon and Smith are easily capable of carrying the offense by themselves without Nash/Howard, as they used to be the 1st option in spurts and closing minutes for the Bulls and Nuggets, respectively. I agree that Moute should be in the starting lineup and use Beasley as the 6th man/to finish games. And like the post above, once Rose starts getting double teamed, someone needs to step up, and there are no proven #2 options that can close out a game on Spooner's team. Though Rose is a phenomenal player, Howard protecting the paint will be tough.
Nash plays 33 mpg. Howard plays almost 40. So there's going to be times where Howard is going to have to be the primary offensive option. And Stoudemire is a far superior offensively than Dwight Howard. The baseline for projected performance is the 2010-2011 season. Gordon played for the Pistons and averaged the fewest shots/game of his career, and JR Smith has rarely been the 1st option in closing minutes. Final possession maybe, but not closing minutes. Even if Nash give Rose plenty of space, I still think Rose is fast enough and Nash laterally slow enough that Rose could get to the basket. And if Dwight Howard challenges Rose in the paint, then odds are Love/Lopez will get the rebound or Rose would draw a foul. Also, I question the overall talent level of dharock's team outside of Nash/Howard. JR Smith, Taj Gibson, Ben Gordon, and Ryan Anderson are all bench players for their respective NBA teams, and Butler is not fully healthy. In a bo7 game series, my team would sweep dharocks' team and would probably take 6 games to beat spooner's team.
Arguing isn't going to make a difference..... People are enamored with Dwight to a point of delusional thinking. He makes Orlando relevant as the 4th seed in the Eastern Conference. Rose made Chicago relevant as the 1st seed in the entire NBA despite injuries throughout the year.... Doesn't matter that Dwight was a first round exit, while Rose dragged his team to the conference finals. Dwight will always be viewed on a pedestal. Put any other center on this team and it would have been over. It makes no difference that my backup 4 is better than his starting 4. He is playing a question mark at the 3 and nobody seems to care. Does anyone even realize how serious that injury is? Regardless, Beasley is not terrible. He actually had a higher PER than "healthy Caron" this year. Not saying he is better, but he isn't bad. Does anyone realize the size advantage I have on him? 6'3 Hinrich at starting SG and then Ben Gordon really? Ben Gordon was AWFUL this year. Does anyone care? My spacing isn't bad. Lopez and Love are MUCH better shooters than Dwight and Taj will ever be. Do I really need to be saying this? It wouldn't be a problem forcing his players out of the paint as both Lopez and Love are excellent midrange shooters. Again, check the matchup history between Lopez and Dwight. It tells a different story than the one I keep hearing. Dwight isn't even a great offensive player, especially against 7 footers ...I just don't understand. I have the league MVP. I have a power forward who had NBA record setting performances this year. 4 players who averaged between 18 to 25 ppg. I would lose to Nash+Dwight and scrubs. I'm done talking about this.
I think it's been stated that Nash would be on Lee or Jordan Craford, and Hinrich would be guarding Rose. Also, Howard is a career 18ppg and 13reb guy who shoots 58% (60% in the playoffs). Even though his PGs have been okay/good, none of them have been Steve Nash good. I think it's fair to think that Nash would help Howard's offensive game. I too think Howard's offense is limited, but his results are good. We cannot deny that he is productive offensively, and Nash would make him better, not worse. Bench players who contribute play important roles (see Jason Terry, NBA Finals). Just because JR Smith and Ben Gordon are bench players, doesn't mean they hypothetically wouldn't contribute. If I were coaching team dharocks, those two guys would be huge factors.
Courtney Lee may not be able to create his own shot in 1on1 situations, but he definitely does move without the ball. And given the facts that he's bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic than Nash and Nash isn't a good defender, I think it's fair to say that Nash would get abused. How exactly will Nash make Howard a better player? First of all, Howard will most likely starting the transition offense by getting the defensive rebound. It's not too common for a player to get the defensive rebound, outlet the ball, and end up scoring the basket. Secondly, Howard doesn't have a consistent jump shot so he wouldn't be an effective pick and roll player. Lopez would simply need to play off of Howard when he's setting the pick, and Rose would need to go over the top of the pick to discourage Nash from shooting. Even if Nash does make Howard better, it won't be to the magnitude you're imagining. I didn't say they wouldn't contribute. My comment about them being bench players is in regards to their overall talent level. They all have major flaws. JR Smith is a knucklehead who abandons the offense and Jason Terry/Ben Gordon are severely undersized shooting guards.
Voted Spooner myself, thought before the first round started he had the best team going. Outside of Center, Spooner has him at every single position. Even his bench would run circles and circles around Dharocks.
I don't understand how people can say Nash would make Howard THAT much better. Jameer Nelson has been highly overlooked on this board. He is a great pick and roll point guard in his own right. Further, you dont think that Kevin Love would benefit from anyone other than Luke Ridnour? Let alone arguably the best point guard in the game? Works both ways, more so in my favor I believe.Nash>Jameer. Remember Jameer was an allstar not to long ago.... It's not like Howard doesn't have a reliable point guard. D Rose>>>>Ridnour its not even close. Nash is better than Jameer at pushing the break, but Howard is likely to get the rebounds to start the break. Kirk Hinrich who plays below the rim, and a slower Caron is not really ideal for a fast break. Dwight Howard has no where near the outlet passing ability that Kevin Love has. I feel Rose, Courtney Lee, Beasley is a much better breaking team, especially with Love's outlet passing. At least Love will play a part in fast breaks. Do you really expect Howard to get rebounds, run the floor and score countless times? That is what it sounds like to me.
Ever since NBA.com got their hotspots database hacked, I don't think it's been back up. This makes it tougher to analyze shooting stats. So 82games.com it is. Since I'm at work, I'll get to the rest of the issues later, but I think Nash is a better offensive player than Nelson, and that Nash would help Howard elevate his game. Basically, Nash is a better shooter, dribbler, and passer than Nelson. Nash has better timing on his passes and puts it where post players can finish. Dwight Howard is not Amare on offense, but he's not a slouch either. You can't say Howard is nothing because his team went to the 1st round only while saying that Love and Lopez are everything. Dirk's team went only to the 1st round last year and then won the NBA championship the next year. It's about the body of work. Howard averaged 23ppg and 14reb last year while shooting 59%. He has lead his team to the playoffs every year, including deep runs. Love and Lopez are good young players, but have not yet lead their teams to winning seasons. There's a difference here. Just my opinion, but this difference means something. Also, Nash is better than Nelson because even from last year alone: Nash: 14.7ppg, 11.4ast, .492 FG, .395 3pt, .511eFG on jumpshots (86% of total shots), .739eFG inside (14% of total), 7% of all shots blocked. Nelson: 13.1ppg, 6.0ast, .445 FG, .401 3pt, .493eFG jumpshots (78% of total), .603eFG inside (22% of total), 15% of all shots blocked. Steve Nash is just a better baller than Nelson. He has a deadly combo of skills and smarts that allows him to score outside and inside. He only gets 5% of his inside shots blocked (compared to 13% of Nelson's). This is evident by his array of interior moves, and the great ability to find cutters and finishers using the pass when defenders help on Nash's penetration. Nash isn't the fastest nor the quickest, but his vision, handles, and ability to score and dish make him one of the best. This is why 82.games.com has Nash ranked as the 8th best player with their Simple Rating (Work in Progress) based solely on last year. And Howard is #1. http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG8.HTM It's not the only way to evaluate a player and 82games will have a better measure later. That said, I think I've given ample evidence as to why Nash is better than Nelson, and as to how Nash makes players around him better. I don't think I'm off the wall in stating that I believe Nash would help Dwight Howard's offense if they play together. I don't think I'm off the wall in stating that Dwight Howard, while limited, is one of the most productive players inside in the NBA. I don't think I'm crazy for thinking that Nash and Howard and good role players who can shoot would make a very good offensive team. Btw, Howard shot 50% FG on his jumpshots last year (32% of all shots taken by him were jumpers). Looks like working with The Dream helped out. Two years ago Howard shot 25% FG on his jumpshots (only 13% of all shots taken by him were jumpers). Howard has improved greatly on offense. Specifically, Nash can dribble and dish better than Nelson. Nelson doesn't have Nash's split second decision making ability. Nash knows when to shoot and pass, and how to pass. That's why Nash makes players around him better. With Howard's improved jumper, and Nash's dribble and dish abilities, dhaRocks' team would be pretty damn good. Add to that a slew of complimentary shooters and slashers.
Yeah....I wouldn't trust 82games.com in regards to jump shots. It says that 27% of Chuck Hayes' shots were jump shots...
Wrong. Team Defense Rose>Nash Courtney Lee>Hinrich Mbah a Moute> Both of your small forwards Kenyon Martin> Both of your power forwards Dwight is a better defender than Lopez, but he is the only one. There is no I in team... Also Lopez a decent defender in his own right. Shooting Nash> Rose Courtney Lee=Hinrich/Gordon (though Lee had a better 3 point % than both of them) Caron(if healthy)>Beasley(Beasley and JR are both streaky shooters.) Kevin Love> Taj Gibson Brook Lopez> Dwight Howard Low Post Offense Kevin Love scored 20ppg with a 470 FG%. (He was also 417% from 3. That on its own is better than all of your players with the exception of Butler) Brook Lopez scored 20ppg with a 492 FG%. Taj's career high is on par with the averages of Love and Lopez. Dwight scores 22ppg on a great percentage, only because he dominates the paint and controls the glass. Putbacks ect...which I think would be severely limited with the matchup against Love. He really isn't a great offensive weapon otherwise, shooting a poor percentage outside of the paint, and possessing a terrible free throw percentage. Low Post Defense You have the edge here, solely because of Howard. However, Mbah a Moute and Kenyon Martin are both very good defenders in the post. Brook Lopez isn't bad either. Your point guard may be better at half court offense, but again, I am not sure how effective your transition game would be, or how you would stop mine. In any case, Rose is better than Nash.
Kim, I wasn't so much debating that Nash is superior to Nelson. I was trying to point out that the gap between Nelson and Nash is smaller than the gap between Ridnour and Rose. You really don't think Love would benefit from a point guard of that caliber?
