Good point, actually I have later remembered hearing the stories of Jesus as a 5 yrs old. Also my best friend became a Christian, he lived in Hawaii and when I flew out to go surfing he took me to a surfer church and wouldn't let me do drugs in his house. He never spoke to me about God or anything. Also. later to keep my wife I was trying to read the bible, I guess as a religious book looking for help, yes, even as an atheist, I felt deep down in my heart there was no god period, but the idea of god was humorous and it didn't mean I wouldn't talk about god or play games, etc. - part of reading the bible was trying to show my wife how I would do anything for her not to leave, - I mean I was having affairs, abusing her etc I actually did try to pray when I was arrested in Mexico in desparation, I had a knowlege of the life of Jesus, just really was convinced I was a total product of evolution and there was no logical or real evidence for god. I never really expected for god to save me from drug charges in Mexico but I was desparately trying everything, I was afraid to die and guns were cocked and pressed against my temple. Also giving prayer a try didn't seem like anything that validated god I was using a mystical combination probably out of confusion in the moment.
Anyways, my personal story is weird, but I have seem same thing in other people's lives, the couple who cares for the teenagers in our church were severe crack heads, meth heads, he and his wife were sex swapping, streets of Montrose, CPS taking the kids, lost everything they had and they actually came to one of our church camps and with one word their lives were completely changed, in one moment. I have no explanation. It was unbelievable unexpected and I saw it with my own eyes with about 100 other witnesses, today 6 yrs later they are very loving, joyful, humble and honest people and I would trust my bank account, kids and church to them.
Why is that? Because you say it is? Go google the terms "scientist religion statistics". You'll find that scientists are a lot less religious than Americans are in general, and even one article that says the "elite" scientists are less religious than normal ones.
I'm not an atheist (an agnostic here, folks), but I freely admit to praying a few times when a close family member or friend was very ill. Live long enough, and those times add up more than I'd care to remember. One thing I do, which I suspect some atheists do, as well, is bow my head when a prayer is said at a funeral, or at a wedding. It's out of respect for the rest of the people involved. I bow my head, close my eyes, and wait for it to end. They always do. And I don't see anything hypocritical about doing that as a gesture of respect.
I think that's the key. We don't fully understand what happened. While it's certainly great, amazing, and awesome to see somebody's live completely turn around for the better, it is difficult to say that "it was this" or "it was that"... including saying "it was God". As you know, you don't need "God" to cause this drastic change. It happens with all sorts of random causes and for all sorts of reasons - and in the cases where it is said to be god it could also be attributed to the power of community, the feeling of being loved, the self-desire to change, or a variety of other things. Here's a case where soccer changes lives: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/08/17/bc-homeless-world-cup.html And, of course, the Onion: http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-somehow-overcomes-alcoholism-without-jesus,21146/ Again, I need to be careful to not poop on your story... because it is incredible to hear of such a turn around. I suppose I'm just trying to show you how somebody who is a skeptic and unbeliever reacts to such a story... and why it doesn't display any convincing proof of god's existence. If God is real, then I am really glad that you've found him. I just struggle because my mind doesn't accept such stories. While I wouldn't "accept" the God of the Bible for a number of reasons, if there is a perfect, loving being out there I just see it as unfair for somebody like you to receive such a vague, yet powerful experience while somebody like me can explain it away to natural causes without blinking. It's a pain in the ass, ya know?!
Absolutely not. Look it up. The scientific community is far less religious than the general population, and the further you go up the totem pole (getting out of medicine, biology, etc. up into chemistry, physics, and beyond) the not only are the religious less represented, but stout atheists and agnostics dominate the landscape.
I hear you, and I don't feel you are pooping at all... in contrast to you respectful discussion when I was totally convinced nothing spiritual existed I would not be so kind and I would be saying things like 'only a m****r f*****g moron would believe in something for which there is not one single fact that is verifiable by scientific methods' I can't prove God, but I remain convinced He can. you can try an experiment and ask God to reveal something to you, just don't tell us if He does. And ask with an honest heart, I have an opinion that God just doesn't respond well to human arrogance.
Oh, and I wanted to add I agree with you... lots of things can cause drastic changes even for the good, like marrying the right person, soccer, therapy, just in my case it was Jesus. Not trying to compete with all the other avenues for change, but wouldn't want to trade either.
"Now, let’s take a case of someone who’s been dealt a bad hand: what about Fraulein Friesel in Austria whose father kept her in a dungeon where she didn’t see daylight for twenty-four years and came down most nights to rape and to sodomize her, often in front of the children… I want you just to take a moment to—since you’re so interested in the downtrodden and the helpless—imagine how she must have begged him. Imagine how she must have pleaded. Imagine for how long. Imagine how she must of prayed everyday, how she must have beseeched Heaven. Imagine, for twenty-four years. And no. No answer at all. Nothing! No-thing! NOTHING! Imagine how those children must have felt. Now, you say, ‘That’s all right that she went through that, because she’ll get a better deal in another life.’ I ask you if you can be morally or ethically serious… And Heaven did watch it with indifference, because it knows that that score will later on be settled. So it was well worth her going through it — she’ll have a better time next time. I don’t see how you can look anyone—ANYONE—-in the face, or live with yourself and say anything so hideously, wickedly immoral as that, or even imply it. There. That’s all I’ll say." — Christopher Hitchens
Hitchens beliefs, or lack thereof, go out the window when Fraulein Friesel and Jaycee Dugard, etc, etc, etc. profess their profound belief in God. This statement by Hitchens is very simplistic in thought to say the least.
My beliefs are just as valid and substantiated as yours. Convenient of you to label beliefs you disagree with to be "fantasy".
Ok. I did. And your statements still remain totally false and misleading. Starting with your wooden totem pole which puts chemists (a science which orginates from alchemy and the attempt of turning common materials into gold) at the top. Sure, a higher percentage of Chemists are more likely to be atheist or Agnostic than Doctors or Biologists, I'll give you that. And, yes, as you say, it does "descend towards 0" lol. It goes from a higher percentage to a lower percentage as you go from Doctors (who in your skewed opinion are not "elite" scientists and are at the bottom of your totem pole. Generally, only 1/3 of scientists are atheists (according to your wikipedia stats) and 1/3 are Agnostic and claim they don't know for sure one way or another. Besides that fact, we are not discussing religion here, but statistics regarding the belief in God or a higher power. Haven't you seen the movie Contact? Jeez. True statement: Chemists are less spiritual than Doctors.
The general population is comprised of about 80% of people who follow some sort of religion, number goes up a little higher when you include people who subscribe to/believe in the idea of a personal god. In the sciences, the number dips toward about 40%. Medicine in nominally higher, IIRC, nearing 60%. As you get towards the higher end (yes, there is a higher end of science... as in, the most vetted and accomplished scientists on the planet, most of whom fall under the purview of physics, cosmology, chemistry, etc.) in the National Academy of Sciences, for example, the number of people who even believe in a personal God dips down near 5-7%. And those who actually follow an organized religion are almost completely unrepresented. So yeah, any way you slice it, my statement remains absolutely and 100% true. The religious represent a significantly smaller portion of the scientific community than the general population, including non-religious deists; and the more accomplished and distinguished the science/scientists, the stronger the separation grows.
Maybe a better question is why do atheist use a deity to swear? Why is it such a release to say godamit or Jeeeeeeeezus Christ when the terms hold no significance?
Why do people say F*** or SH**? Why is it relevant to say any particular thing instead of "I'M ANGRYYYYYYY"? (I'm curious as to the origin of what you're saying as well, but I'd say atheists today refer to such things due to repetition and pop culture... though I certainly agree that it's silly)
If you grew up hearing people say "yabba dabba doo!" to express anger, you'd do it too. It's a rose by any other name. Somebody, at some point, be they deist or not, used the expression (which does make sense, from a logical standpoint), and apparently it resonated with a lot of people (and I can see why)... and so the meme was born. Not really something worth racking your brain over.
1. They do? Based on what? God's morality and lack of intervention has nothing to do with the individual's beliefs, at all. 2. I think Mr. Hitchens just went over your head.
