[Eurobasket-2011] Donuts was cut from Lithuanian national team roster

anchel has been arguing that Sergio Llull is for example a better player than Fernando San Emeterrio in this forum. I simply called him out on that. And I seriously doubt that any real European basketball fan would agree with him. Llull is considered a talented, nice, up and coming, sort of rising player in Euroleague with a chance to have a very good future.

San Emeterio is considered basically to be a top 5 player in Europe, probably at least that high, and most people consider him the best SF in the Euroleague. The position of anchel on that debate is very much out of the majority opinion of most people in Europe.

You don't know anything about these players and yet you are labeling people talking about them as liars, without actually yourself having the slightest clue what the truth is. San Emeterio is an extremely good player and there would be very few European basketball fans that would put Llull in his class. It seems anchel disagrees with that. OK, that is his opinion, but his opinion is definitely not what most people think on that.

 

The US Men's basketball team has dominated since the day professionals started playing. They had a brief period where, SHOCK!, they lost a game or two. Otherwise, we are surprised when they don't blow out their opponent, and certainly surprised when they lose. This is with them having to change their games to different court sizes and rules and tactics.

Absent regular play amongst the teams in each league, we have no other barometer to go by.

That said, on the whole, it is very rare (never?) to have a European player come to the NBA and perform meaningfully better simply from making the switch of leagues. Alternatively there have been fringe NBA players that have had bigger impacts in preeminent overseas leagues simply by virtue of switching leagues.

That's not to say there aren't great NBA players who play worse overseas. That can certainly happen. Just as there are European players who play worse than their true talent in the NBA (see V-Span). But I think that's less indicative of league quality - given there are so many factors that contribute to a decline in production when moving leagues, teams and countries - than the reverse, which I noted above.

 

Don't forget that OHMSS, used to pretend to be Greek and displayed a fake accent....

The dude is a class A, troll.

DD

 

I repeat it once again. Team USA is allowed to travel and palm the ball in all FIBA and Olympic competitions from 2007 onwards. After they lost in 2002, 2004, and 2006, the rules were changed in those competitions to allow Team USA players to travel and palm the ball.

This is not allowed in the Euroleague. So comparing an Olympics or a FIBA World Championship to the Euroleague is totally nonsensical. There is no comparison. Wade or LeBron would have 8-10 turnovers in a half if they played their normal game (the same one they are allowed to play at the Olympics) in the Euroleague. Because the Euroleague is extremely strict on travel and palming, regardless of whether an American player is playing or not. The Euroleague still uses the travel and palming rules that FIBA was using with NBA players from 2006 and earlier.

On another note...........Goran Dragic just got completely dominated by Nikos Zisis in the Slovenia-Greece game.

 

Please don't destroy my post by taking a little middle excerpt out of context.
My post was:

"But as you see in the Eurobasket(or probably not, cause you not watchin it), NBA players can only dominate on a NBA-sized court, not on a Euro-sized with European rules and tactics. The NBA court is made for athleticsm and run&gun instead of teamwork. The advantage these guys show in Eurobasket and Euroleague is very small, if there is one."

Reply to that as a whole, I made a point that you have to agree with when watching European Basketball and Eurobasket. NBA players don't dominate over the top Euro guys, their stats are equal. Athletic guys like Batum or Fernandez don't score 20+ points because the zone-defense and higher intensity take away most of the athletic advantage. Pau Gasol averages 5.8reb because of the European style and can't easily dominate the boards. Same with Marc, Ibaka, Bargnani, Dirk,...
If you follow Eurobasket and Euroleague you'll see that NBA guys don't overtake games and put up huge stats because the smaller court and tighter rules mixed with more aggressive defense don't allow one player to dominate over a team.

 

Exactly. There is not a player on this planet that can "dominate the Euroleague". Yes, it is is possible in the NBA, but not in the Euroleague. The NBA is specifically designed to make scoring points easy.

The Euroleague is specifically designed to make the defense intense and physical.

When NBA only fans start making these claims about how any NBA player can just "dominate" the Euroleague it truly is funny. Look, for the NBA only fans, there was a time when single players could dominate Euroleague.

Like back in the '80s when guys like Drazen Petrovic and Nikos Galis could dominate individually. But that does not happen now, and it will not happen, no matter what player you put in that league. Back then the game was played fast and the defense was played relaxed, so indivudually great scorers could dominate. Even then though, you are talking about only the two most prolific European scorers of all time. Guys that could light it up unlike any other European guards.

But today, the Euroleague is very physical, with very hard defense, very intense play, and the games are half court for the most part. A '90s Heat-Knicks playoff game, is a typical style regular season Euroleague game. But add in that you can also play a pure zone in Euroleague and the "star treatment" NBA calls do not exist in Euroleague.

Now compare that to how the NBA has changed with the game becoming very non-physical, soft, weak defense, and the rules and refs pushing the offense to succeed.

There is simply no way to say that an NBA player is just magically going to dominate in a league where it is much harder to score in than it is in the NBA. Americans mostly, for whatever reason just can't seem to grasp this. It is not a knock or an insult to NBA players, or Americans, yet they seem to take it that way.

No players can "dominate in Euroleague". It simply is not designed that way. So to constantly try to compare the level of the two leagues based simply on how NBA players are flying all over the court and dunking is completely absurd.

As far as I know, LeBron has not even gotten a phone call returned or an offer even made by a European team. While Durant has gotten several offers. Why is that? Because Durant has skills like shooting and can play off the ball.

LeBron would be nothing but a glorified Josh Childress in the Euroleague. Because all of his palming, all of his travels, all of his free trips to the free throw line, and his total inability to handle a zone defense would take away most of his game there.

Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Tyreke Evans - guys like that would be awful failures in Euroleague. There is no way that they could cut it as lead guards in a big Euroleague club.

It is not saying those are bad players, it is just that in the NBA their athletic ability is maximized by the rules, and their lack of skills and fundamentals are covered by the rules and the refs.

All you ever here is this "NBA players are athletically superior". NBA = when they see a guy like Rose they design rules to help him, to max his athletic ability, and the refs cover up, along with the rules, his lack of skills and fundamentals.

In the Euroleague Derrick Rose (NBA MVP) would be out there with no jump shot, no ability to properly run an offense, and would have no open lane, and guards that are allowed to hack and body him all over the court. Guards that are much bigger and much stronger than what he sees in the NBA, where everything is about having a little fast guy because of the no hand check rule.

The Euroleague is full of Derek Harper, Ron Harper type of players at guard with no open lane. Players like Evans, Rose, Westbrook would not work at all. Yet NBA fans think they would "dominate" there.

Look at Rubio. Perfect example. His only hope of ever having a good career is to go the NBA where the rules and refs are designed to help make him better than he really is. But he is not strong enough and not skilled enough on offense to make it in the Euroleague as anything but a defensive ball pressure guy on defense and a main primary ball handler on offense.

His option to succeed is the NBA, where his weaknesses will be covered up the offense helping rules and by the refs that are friendly to the players the NBA wants to market.

Until NBA fans can accept these basic realities, they just don't have much general basketball knowledge outside of NBA. I am sorry to say it, but it is the truth.

 

NBA is the standard, more people watch and support NBA than any other basketball league in the world. So, quit comparing apples with oranges, saying that NBA players can't adapt to Euroleague, but if anything you should be comparing it the other way around. Yes, the NBA is the benchmark.

 

Great post man, sadly can't spread reputation around before giving it again.:grin:

 

It is not the benchmark in Europe as a whole.

 

How convenient of you...

Yes... or maybe... here it comes..... maybe Wade and Lebron would adjust..

 

Yes. They would adjust. Exactly my point. And after they adjusted, they would lose almost their entire offense that they have in the NBA. You certainly would not see anywhere near the amount of dunks from either of them, and especially not the same amount of free throws.

They would adjust, and they would not dominate, nor even come close to doing so, after they adjusted.

 

He. I've never said "Llull is better than San Emeterio", probably I said -and mantain- that he would be a better NBA player and that he has more potential. Add Victor Claver.
Saneme, by the way, wasn't a better player than them at their age. But he could have been it and I wouldn't change my point. I has nothing to do.

 

See I was thinking you made fair points until you said this.

Lebron would be a Josh Childress in the Euroleague? C'mon now.

First of all you have to realize that Childress is not ANYTHING like Lebron. Lebron is probably the most athletic player to ever play basketball and you are comparing him to Josh Childress....do you NOT see anything wrong with that?

All this "Lebron and Wade travel" is nonsense and a excuse really. "USA only wins because they get to travel." is not a argument.

I understand that players like Lowry may not go over to Europe and dominate.

But Lebron and Wade? Come now, they would be great players no matter where they go.

What you're saying is Messi would play worse in the EPL or Ronaldo. It's silly.

Lebron is most likely the best player in the world despite how much people hate on him, but he wouldn't dominate in the 2nd best league after dominating in the first?

There is a BIG difference between Childress and Lebron, so comparing them is full of fail.

 

Well, you are wrong, and I maintain my point. San Emeterio is better than Llull, NBA, or ACB or wherever.

 

LeBron could not even handle the Dallas Mavs half zone. The so-called psuedo NBA zone, or some people call it the "fake NBA zone". And no-hanc checking and the defensive 3 seconds rule.

Explain to me how in the world LeBron is going to be some great player in Euroleague, where there is a real true zone (of any kind) allowed, you can stay in the lane on D as long as you like, and you can hand check on the perimeter?

LeBron could not even do a thing against Dallas, just by them applying like a half zone, even with friendly refs, an open lane, etc.

Do you not understand that you can't hold the ball like LeBron does in the Euroleague? As Yung-T is trying to explain here over and over.......the court is smaller.

OK, follow me here. The court is smaller and there is considerably less space at the elbows and at the corners than there used to be. NBA fans like to bring up the "we beat them playing their rules" arguments.

Yeah, well those rules were changed. Now the lane is rectangle and the 3 point line is out farther. But, the court size is still smaller. Thus, there is considerably less room to operate for wing players.

Now combine this with a real zone allowance and think about it. In the NBA you have to be within a arm's length of the player in this "zone defense". You don't in the Euroleague. You can zone up just like in NCAA for example.

Now you take a guy like LeBron that holds the ball by the simple way he plays the game and put him in a league like that, where also big men can camp out in the lane all they want (no defensive 3 seconds rule), you are allowed to hand check, and the refs do not award free throws for hurling yourself into defenders.

LeBron's style of play would not work at all in Euroleague. The moment he started to hold that ball on the perimeter the defense is set, locked in, the lane is clogged, and he has no room to operate on the elbows, and no driving lanes.

He would be stuck totally with nothing but a long distance 3 point shot. LeBron's open court opportunities and dunks would almost be completely eliminated, and his taking 3-5 steps on every time he touches the ball would not be allowed.

There is nothing about his current offensive game that would be successful in the Euroleague. Now, if he was a reliable outside shooter, then yes, he could start to open up things and start to take advantage of his size and athletic ability and start getting to the foul line.

But, simple fact is what it is. Even with a half NBA zone, he cannot break it and he is not a reliable shooter. He would have absolutely no resemblance whatsoever in Euroleague, to the player you think of on Sportscenter highlights.

He would not be a bad Euroleague player. I am sure he would do fine overall, especially if he was used as a rebounder and maybe in post ups against small forwards, and just to focus on defense.. But, he would definitely not be the best player there. He would be, just exactly as I said, a rich man's version of Childress.

 

And so it begins....the NOFs.

 

You say that as if the Mavs are this horrible defensive team.

Lebron does not hold the ball every time he dribbles like you assume. The whole "After USA lost the refs let them travel" conspiracy mess.

I'd argue Lebron would do better because he'd get to go off moving screens everytime down the court and his defense would be a beast since he could slap the ball off the rim with no goaltending.

Lebron is not a great shooter but it seems you think the only way to score is to shoot which Lebron isn't a horrible shooter by any means. I don't know where you are getting that from, no one in the NBA is leaving Lebron wide open, if they could he wouldn't be a two time MVP and nearly unguardable in the league. If you've seen Lebron he's always making tough shots over guys his only game is NOT driving and dunking. Same with Wade, anyone that says so simply has not seen these guys play enough.

 

There is no open lane in the Euroleague. There is always an open lane in the NBA. There is less space in Euroleague and therefore you cannot hold the ball, which is what LeBron does all the time.

NBA has much more open shots because of the space between the defenders and the offensive players, which does not exist in Euroleague, because of the difference of zone defense rules and because the 3 point line is closer.

Also, very rarely does anyone get near the rim to knock off shots that are on the rim. Unless LeBron suddenly became a 7 foot center he would hardly ever be near the rim to do that.

I have seen dozens and dozens and dozens of games LeBron has played in the NBA. The difference is that I also follow the Euroleague.

 

OHMSS may be right sometimes, but I think he has OCD.

 

Rubio leadin Spain to a devastating 84-59 win over Serbia with an enormous 2pts, 0reb, 3ast game. T'Wolves really got a gem, let's count them in as contenders.