Why do people pray for someone?

You have the idea of Christianity very different than I do.

I'm a Christian. I don't believe the bible says that God knows every single choice that a man will make. I certainly believe in Jesus Christ of the bible. It may not be the way that has recently become tradition of some particular Christian churches, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in Christ and the bible.

I understand that in order to argue against Christianity you have to define the faith in a particular way. While there are Christians who believe in it the way you define it, there are plenty who look a little deeper into it and don't see it that way. So you shouldn't claim that others don't believe in the bible.

As far as knowing which choice a man would make, that would make God less omniscient because he wouldn't know every single possible deviation and everything that could result from that. He would actually know less. So if in your mind being omniscient means knowing less, then that is fine, but to me it makes sense that it means knowing more.

Also as I mentioned in either this thread or another one, science not God has recently come up with the idea that we have far less free will than was originally thought.

 

I won't answer these other questions but I, for one, believe that killing all the first-born, including children, (not to mention a whole lot of cattle, which makes very little sense) in a city whose population was probably in excess of 3 million was a pretty bad thing.

 

Very good points.

God did create a perfect world, and he gave man the responsibility to keep it by living according to God's own image or love.

God never intended there to be suffering, man brought that about against the plan of God.

God is not teaching anyone a lesson, God intended that we love each other justly and impartially so that there would not be suffering.

God allows man to make choices because love cannot be forced.

A man who is forced to do what is right is not choosing to do right.

You must look into this, God will not unilaterally interfer with people's choices unless He is just to all and interferes with all choices.

God could stop all of man's choices that cause suffering, but that would mean He must stop all lying, stealing, cheating, selfishness, greed, jealousy, pride, anger, hate, prejudice, laziness, neglect, lust, fighting, arguments, resentment, vengence, bullying, stinginess, racism, deception, drunkeness, self righteousness, and hypocrisy.

Logically God should not stop suffering for one without stopping it for all.

Logically and by observation it should be self evident to you that it is man that is causing the suffering not God.

Logically God is having to patiently put up with a world full of suffering caused by man, just to give the world a chance to make changes.

You mistake God's patience for His approval.

When God has lost His patience with the suffering man causes He will intervene. You will then find out about His power to stop suffering.

The plan of God you don't understand is to give man a second chance to stop causing suffering. It is exactly because of suffering that God will judge all who cause it.

God hates suffering.

Stop blaming God and look at who is really doing the damage- people

 

So rhester... what will heaven be like? Because the Christians I know say "perfect". Does that mean we won't have free will? The same people will say that we will have free will, but we'll just choose to be perfect. How is that any different than "creation"? Do you think Adam and Eve wanted to be bad? Surely not... it seems heaven with humankind would have an equal chance of becoming 'sinful' as the Garden of Eden scenario... no?

 

Heaven is not a different place but earth when people act with love toward one another. It is an age when that happens, and not really a different place.

 

I don't get it. Are you saying that my thoughts don't reach God because I'm not Christian? That God has a heathen filter on that he doesn't even bother listening to us?

I guess that's true though. I'm sure it's not that God doesn't want to help those hungry dying kids in 3rd world countries. But because they're heathens, God's firewall meant he can't actually hear them so suffer so he let them continue to suffer.

That will teach those kids to believe in their wacky pagan religion that obviously have no basis and are a bunch of pure BS.

 

It's great that anyone who would like to pray for someone who just died should have to direct those feelings to a place where they will be denigrated for that sentiment. That right there is what's so great about this particular forum.

 

There is a temptation among Christians to 'know' the answers.
I'll give you my opinion, we will have free will.

In my understanding we will have different bodies, and hearts.

It would seem that in the afterlife God has prepared for love to be perfected.

 

Did you read the OP's comment in the first page or just read the title of this thread?

 

And the children who don't get taken care of....what plan did God have for them?

I mean, really? These kids exist, devoid of dreams and comfort, just so they might hope one day some random white man living across the ocean might donate enough money so they don't go hungry for 100 days?

That's God's plan for them? Isn't that a little too cruel?

 

But man is the work of God. If God never intended there to be suffering, then why create suffering? Epicurus awaits your answer...

Then why does he create so much of it?

New Orleans


Indonesia


Haiti


Were these not acts of God? It seems to me you're falling in line with the typical Christian dogma: anything good (rainbows, puppies, Christina Hendricks) is because of God, anything bad (fires, dingo attacks, Ann Coulter) is because of man's sin. Either the universe is God's domain or it isn't. And earthquakes, hurricanes, and tsunami exist within the universe.

I really don't know why I'm continuing in this pointless debate, when I know the eventual drill-down answer will be that old chestnut "God works in mysterious ways."

 

I think it comes down to the fact that not everyone who believes in God believes it's some kind of human type figure who is located somewhere else, pulling levers and pushing buttons to make things like hurricanes and earthquakes happen.

I believe in God but don't believe that is the purpose of God, or is something God really even controls.

I'm basing that answer on the bible.

 

So you're saying that the Bible doesn't provide any reason for people to believe that God pulls levers and pushes buttons to make natural disasters happen?

Have you ever read the Flood story? Or Numbers 11:1 when God sent fire? Or Psalm 148:8 which declares that storms "do his bidding". Or the story of Jonah in which God created a mighty tempest in the sea (Jonah 1:4). Or Job 37 which says that "by the breath of God frost is given". Or Exodus 9:23-29 where God sent hail and fire from heaven onto Egypt. Or Joshua 10:11 where he sent hail on the Amorites. Or thunder in 1 Samuel 7:10. Or a whirlwind and drought in Nahum 1:3. Or rain in Deuteronomy 11:13-15. Or drought in Deuteronomy 28:24 and Zechariah 14:17. Or hailstone in Revelation 16:21.

I find Christian logic around natural disasters to be absolutely mind boggling. One one hand - believers point to the intricacies of our incredible world to demonstrate fine tuning. But then, when somebody counters by pointing out all the problems with the world to demonstrate that it surely could have been fine tuned a little better if there really was an Almighty Being, Christians will say that sin caused the problems such as Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Meteors, Tornadoes, etc...

...tell me, how exactly could "sin" add lava into the core of the planet? How could "sin" cause meteors to start flying around us with deadly potential? How could "sin" create storm cycles? There is no foundation for such irrational beliefs. The only explanation is "I'll just go with this crazy idea of sin making it all happen because it will allow me to continue to believe in my other crazy idea of an invisible mysterious being creating the planet and wanting to live with us forever".

 

"I don't understand - why do people pray for someone? (such as for someone who is encountering health trouble)?"

... is not part of the title of the thread

 

On target... except that you were denigrated over there, too.

What can I say except: the elephant in the room.

We were instructed to post in this thread...

 

If God wants that person dead, they'll die, right? Do you think your prayer is going to change God's mind?


If you pray that it's God's will that that person lives, well... God already knows what his will is going to be, and your prayer isn't going to change that, is it?


Do you think it helps to have more people pray for a person? Why?


Most people believe that "everything happens for a reason"... well, isn't your prayer useless since there's a reason that the person is struggling?


When so many people die, doesn't it seem fruitless to pray for people?


When you pray for someone's family, what exactly are you praying? Are you praying that they can cope with the problem? If so, won't they cope (or not cope) regardless of whether you prayed for them?


Do you honestly believe that prayer can save?

 

Does Vegas publish odds regarding which religion is the one that leads to a spot in Heaven? I'd hate to get to the Pearly Gates and instead of hearing an angel playing a harp, I get the Pac Man game over sound...

 

Of course God can and has caused earthquakes and droughts etc. But only on occasions that specifically necessitated His intervention to further His plans for forgiveness and restoration for mankind.

Have you considered how much Jesus, God's own Son suffered for the sins of mankind by the determinate will and plan of God. This great suffering caused by God was intended to provide forgiveness to every person, for every sin, for all time.


I never said that God could not bring good out of suffering. His plan for suffering is forgiveness.

I was posting to everyone that is trying to make an invalid point that suffering is God's 'Grand' plan for man- the ridiculous idea that God delights in man's suffering.

I already stated that when God has special purpose He intervenes as He chooses into the choices man makes, even to the point of a flood, or drought, or storm. There are plenty of bible verses that bear that out.

Do you think it is easy to turn down a young lady with a child living on the streets who asks for $20 for food because I know for a fact she is going to use the money to buy more drugs. She doesn't need $20 she needs help to get off drugs.

What about the surgeon who has to remove a breast from a beautifull woman to save her from cancer? Is there a specific purpose for the suffering and shame he caused?

Sin does not cause earthquakes, droughts, or hurricanes.

God could cause any of those if He had a specific reason to do so, but I don't see any evidence for that in general terms and today I find no specific reason God would be pulling strings on natural disasters- weather disasters are actual physical occurances that are caused by the laws of physics, temps, air pressure, and other weather related factors. Natural disasters affect all people whether they believe in God or not. I know some of the best Christians have suffered from weather events. They are mostly random based on physical science.

Sin does not cause these things, God is not pulling strings on falsely called 'acts of God'

Can God cause a drought? Of course. But unless he has a specific purpose that is consistent with His plans for forgiveness and it is significant to His purpose to change evil to good- He does not intervene in the affairs of man.

Unless there is prayer. God will act when proper appeals are made according to His plans.

A proper appeal to God is a good definition of prayer.

 

Well, rhester, while what you appear to believe would probably be a good thing for a great many people because it would yield more goodwill out of some of these stingy, rich religious people/organizations, I am amused at how when presented with completely salient counter-arguments, you just change what you say.

So he never intended for suffering, but brings it about anyway? God's not teaching a lesson to us, but natural disasters are his plan to teach us kindness so he can "restore" or "forgive" us? I'll never understand how a person can spout such ridiculous words and actually believe them.