That's nice. If you are going to use quotation marks, it should really be when you are quoting someone. Please learn how to read and then try again. And I am free to tell you to use your ignore list or kindly piss off. Round and round we go.
Tells me about as much as I need to know about your views on this particular issue. Haha, nah man, you got me all wrong. Look, you can imagine me lifting my middle and index fingers up and down with my two hands as you are reading my post out, it's that kind of a "quotation". Like what we had before, and what we have with the following---"Austrian economics expert" or "Scientific flat-earth theory" or "originalism without a time machine". Or for you, "obsession with bringing up Mao, as if all citizens of China have forgiven him, and so are never entitled to bring up any grievances against Japan ever---when the two are separate topics." if you wanted to expand. Anyways, to get back on topic, I think the Japanese were much more brutal because their culture inclined towards devaluing their lives to the point where, if the average Japanese life was not worth anything to the Japanese people, well what of "lower" American, Chinese or Korean lives? I guess it speaks to the dangers of overzealous collectivism, and of disregarding the value of individual lives. If in expressing remorse, reflections were made, and subsequent actions were taken to prevent this kind of thing (though I guess the gradual evolution of Japanese society has done most of the heavy lifting here), I would say it would be well worth it to poke at some old scars, if only to learn how to prevent new ones.
People need to keep some perspective when discussing this topic. The current generation of the Japanese people have as much to do with the atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese government prior to and during WWII, as the current generation of Germans during the same period. In short, nothing.
You are right that most of the current generation have nothing to do with the war crimes during WWII however you still cant ignore history and not acknowledge something that has happened. The lack of acknowledgment and apology is why the rest of Asia still has a lot of animosity towards Japan. For example let's say my father murdered your father and raped your mother. It has nothing to do with me. I didn't commit the crime. How would you feel if I never acknowledged it even denied it ever happening despite evidence pointing to the contrary. This is why Japan's neighbors still have a lot of hatred toward Japan and that is why you saw nasty comments like "good japan deserved what happened in the tsunami and that it was karma". Yes the current generation didn't commit any war crimes but you cant just ignore what happened and even try to change history. Also when you have war criminals at shrines and places of worship that is going to piss a lot of people off.
I've made numerous posts in the past about this topic, and know quite a bit about Japan's atrocities committed against its neighbors in the region and their citizens, as well as the terrible things done to Allied prisoners of war, if on a far smaller scale. I've said before that Japan has dithered on making a clear and unambiguous apology, which those neighbors deserve, and that it was wrong to "sanitize" the history books used to educate their children. They need to confront their past, like the Germans have, which is something I admire. Until they do, this issue will continue to bedevil them.
Why do you try to make it out like it's strictly between China and Japan? Are you aware that many other Asian countries still has a lot of animosity towards Japan? Are you also aware that the first person who replied in this thread is a Korean? So are you going to ask another silly question like why the Koreans are obsessed with vilifying the Japanese while excusing Kim Jong il? I don't mean to be rude. But I have to say you seem to be very uninformed.
Because usually it is a Chinese poster that makes the thread, usually it is about the Japanese having a shrine with bad people in it, and usually the major point brought up against Japan is the rape of Nanking, as it was in this thread. Do you know where Nanking (or Nanjing) is? I'll give you a clue, it isn't in Korea. It is funny to me that the same people that get their panties twisted over a shrine to fallen soldiers, a few of whom were war criminals are fine with a shrine dedicated solely to someone who is responsible for more deaths (of the same people even) than anyone else in human history (maybe Stalin did more, it is tough to get exact numbers out of those two countries).
So you still cannot think of the reason why? Maybe Stalin did lead the Russian people to fight off the Nazi invaders? Maybe Mao was dumb, uneducated and naive but the intention of his disastrous economic reforms were to improve their economic well-being? On the other hand, the Japanese went to China in the 1940's just to burn, kill, rape and colonize their country. Are you capable of seeing the difference there? To help you out, let me give you an hypothetical example. Let's say Martin's father is an alcoholic. He beats up Martin, his mother and his siblings everyday with no reason. He might have even done something really wrong which caused the death of one of their family members. Let's also say one day a criminal breaks into Martin's family, robs them of everything, rapes Martin's sister and kills his brother. Who do you think would Martin hate more, his father or the criminal? I don't know how to help you if you cannot see the difference there.
I can see the difference. It is still funny to me. I have done this dance many times on this board (this same topic at least 2 or 3 times before). To this outside observer with no stake in it, the Japanese killing however many Chinese they did is not as bad as Mao killing many, many more. If I had a family of 100 and some guy that lived down the street raped and murdered 10 women in my family, but my father starved 60 members of my family to death, I would hate both. If the rapists family put him in their family crypt I wouldn't get pissed whenever they went to visit it. I certainly would not make a special crypt just for my father at the same time.
You had one big family. Seriously, did your father intend to starve the 60 members of your family? Did he intend to do something great to help everyone out. But things went terribly wrong due to both his mistakes and things that he could not control. I can understand if you still have anger against your father. But would it be much easier for you to forgive your father than the cold-blooded criminal who broke into your home just to rape and kill with the intention to eradicate your whole family?
Maybe visiting the shrine doesn't mean much to you. But, from what I have read, it does mean a lot of the Asian people. Were you taught to respect other people's cultural value when you grew up?
You mean like respecting people's own religious rituals, such as observing visits to religious shrines? Your argument is like the Muslims in the UK who want non-Muslims to stop eating pork because it offends Muslim values. Your cultural values don't superceede their cultural values, with respect to how they conduct themselves. It would be like them demanding that you visit their shrine, because to not do so offends their culture. Assuming that would offend you, your own cultural values would supercede those any external agent. It is one thing to bend to their concerns out of respect when they do not directly conflict with yours. It is quite another to expect you to surrender your cultural imperatives in the face of conflicting demands from someone else.
You got it all wrong. Japanese and people in the other Asian countries share the same cultural value in visiting a shrine. The value is that visiting a shrine is of tremendous symbolic significance to them. And it is obvious not StupidMoniker's cultural value. I am not saying who is right or who is wrong. Because there is simply no right or wrong here. But StupidMoniker obviously does not respect the cultural value of the Asian people that visiting a shrine means a lot to them.
Japan celebrates their surrender..? France doesn't even celebrate surrenders -- if they did every day would be a holiday.
good thing they didn't surrender when they helped found the United States. Yeah, except it goes further than "visiting a war shrine" to having war criminals still be in good standing in Japanese society, and revising history books. This isn't a question of cultural relativism. Japan needs to apologize, period. Not visiting the shrine is just the first step. Even if, culturally speaking, there is an impetus to visit shrines (of which there are plenty of other acceptable ones as per the article, with the PM visiting one of those instead this year), it doesn't excuse the fact that Japanese war criminals were allowed to live out their lives in peace. It is a basic norm of humanity to express remorse for terrific acts, and to work on ensuring they never happen again, that supersedes all cultural norms. Look at Germany, for Christsakes. Condoning Nazism is a crime. Hell, denying the Holocaust is a crime. It might be an extreme, but in Japan, denying things like Nanking are government policy. I mean, apply everything you guys are saying to the Holocaust, that most sacred ground. ex: Jews shouldn't talk about the suffering of the Holocaust because Israel oppresses Arabs now. Neo-Nazis should be allowed to pay their respects to prominent Nazi graves, because the German cultural imperative to visit cemeteries supersedes the objections of outsiders. Plenty of Chinese do. I don't even understand why you're arguing, unless it's to belittle the suffering the Chinese went through. The two are unrelated. If you want to argue the Chinese are delusional for still supporting Mao, then start another topic. To try to somehow imply that they don't deserve to air their grievances because something else happened to them is just r****ded. This isn't the pain and suffering Olympics, which somehow you've turned it into (Mao's regime gets a gold medal in meting out suffering! STFU Chinese talking about Japan, because you haven't overthrown the PRC and pissed on Mao's grave yet, you should have no say because you people obviously can't suffer right!). These are real events that many people went through, and which we could all learn from, if only one side addresses the fact that it has been more or less denying this has happened for something like the last 70 years.
