Why do people pray for someone?

Not exactly as I know that humpback whales exist but I don't know their mind.

Well said.

 

This is a huge tangent and I apologize if people feel this is too much of a derail and I will then start another thread or revive an old but out of intellectual curiosity I have to ask Rhester about this.

Rhester what it sounds like you are painting is the idea as God as ref who doesn't decide what plays happen but lays out a set of rules, enforces them but lets the players decide how things happen. Is that a correct interpretation?

Now given that God didn't decide who would be on the Titanic but a chain of causality happened with the result that those people boarded the Titanic. With most of the choices not decided by those people. While the people had free will to decide to not board that will was influenced by a variety of other factors, such as I bought the ticket already. At that point how much is the action of happening to be on the Titanic then really a function of free will or an inevitability brought about by the rules that God established leading to the chain of causality?

Now here comes the big tangent. Creationism is based on the idea of God directly intervening to create life and the world as we know it. In that case God is truly the omnipotent being who isn't just a ref but determined the play. If God is though a cosmic ref couldn't Evolution be correct under the idea that it the product of a chain of causality that God has established the rules for but isn't directly interfering in?

 

This is a huge tangent and I apologize if people feel this is too much of a derail and I will then start another thread or revive an old but out of intellectual curiosity I have to ask Rhester about this.

Close, well not a ref but a Supreme League Owner/Commissioner- God has plans and directions as to how things should go and he has purposes He won't change that cause Him to act to ensure their fulfillment. Notice those are separate things we can call God's will- those plans he wants us to follow and choices he makes independent and irregardless of our choices.

Let's use the players and ref idea but use God as the supreme owner/creator/commissioner of the league with limitless power to set the rules and direct the teams and individual players.

God has a game plan, he has positions and plays for the players to execute, he coaches, provides all the means for success, he even gives them supplements that can enhance the performance, he gives them everything necessary so that failure in not even an option and his will can be accomplished. But he lets them play the games. He has some players who choose to try to play center when they are better suited for guard. He has some players who are dirty and won't learn the game. He has some players who pout and complain but he lets them play because his ultimate goal in his league is good sportsmanship. The worst of his players help the best players shine in sportsmanship and often the sportsmanship of some players turn the worst players into the better players over time. And if it is in the best interest of the league he can even intervene with such power as to heal a player's injury. In certain occasions he even has the power to decide the outcome of a play or enhance a players performance. But remember by character he doesn't do things arbitrary or just because a player is upset or whining or trying hard to win a game- and in fairness what he does for one player or team he will do for all because by rule he is impartial in his decisions- he limits the use of his power for situations that make the playing field level. However he also has coaches and general managers to deal with and all kind of other personnel so things don't always go according to plan. But he has the infinite game wisdom to secure his ultimate goals and provide equal opportunity for good sportsmanship which is his ultimate objective in the league. So winning isn't as important to him as sportsmanship. (did I just waste 5 min of my life? :grin: ) All said God wants everyone to play by the rules and treat each other lovingly and play a good well executed game.

That is not a good answer concerning God but it was fun typing it out!

God designed most everything to work by cause and effect. That is put in place in creation, as we can observe. Human choice carries the same cause and effect system but with the added value of being able to evaluate a choice based upon the effect. The decision to board the Titanic was both a result of choice and influence. Everything is affected by influences. God tries to influence choices. Influences greatly impact choices. People can have their free will greatly diminished by strong influencers. But choices help us discover effects and understand influences. For instance many diseases are irradicated by good hygiene, God knew this all along but people had to discover this. That is because of choices, understanding and influences.

The chain of causality is simply the complexity of combining free choice, influence and design into any one situation. Good example is that there is little likeliness that any chain of causality would have placed someone from Kenya aboard the Titanic- just location alone removes choice, influence and cause.

Cosmic owner would be the correct analogy, he created the league, built the stadium and even created the players- he made a great Madden Earth Game.

 

Okay, I'm really trying not to get frustrated here, but you keep coming back to choice, and I'm talking about situations where there WAS NO CHOICE INVOLVED. None. Zip. Nada.

Let's get away from cancer, because cancer could be due to the choice to smoke etc. Maybe this will make it clearer: Bob has Huntington's disease, which is genetic and not due to any choice whatsoever. Bill prays that Bob does not die. Either:

1. God has already determined that Bob will die, making Bill's prayer useless in changing events.
2. God has already determined that Bob will not die, making Bill's prayer useless in changing events.

If you say that there is a third option, then that means God has not determined whether Bob will or will not die. Meaning that there is no plan (not will: a plan). God's just making it up as He goes along. This doesn't seem very divine to me, and definitely flies in the face of omniscient and omnipresent omnipotence.

But wait, a little while ago you said:

So does praying change or not change the blueprint/road map?

 

1. Bob got the disease from genetics not from something God caused (edit- in the sense that God decided to give Bob cancer). If you plant an apple seed you don't get a grape vine. Genetics cause things. Part of how God designed things to roll
2. God hasn't determined that Bob will die, the cause was genetic you said that.

Whatever factors cause genetic problems were built into the system.

I said previously that prayer asked for help from God.
That post was pointing out that if you get out of whack with God's plan you might consider correcting it because God isn't going to alter the plan just because you won't follow it.

If you follow God's plan and die of cancer you can still fulfill his purpose of eternal life in heaven.

Prayer is asking for help from God, something childlike- asking a father to help with the homework, teach the problem solving skills, help clean up some messes and get me out of trouble if possible.

 

"But I don’t believe prayer is magic. In my view, praying for protection doesn’t guarantee that you won’t get into a crash, or even that you won’t be killed. And the reason is not because it may be God’s will for you to get into a crash and get killed. The reason is rather that there are a multitude of variables extending back to the beginning of time that affect what comes to pass, including the free choices of human and spirit agents (e.g. angels, demons). I do not believe these other variables are completely overridden because someone prays."

http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/

 

But it's God's system. You act like this is something outside of His domain, when it's squarely within His purview. You say "the cause was genetic" and I posit that genetics are caused by God, thus the cause was God. It's God's plan. When Bill is praying that Bob won't die from Huntington's, it's either directly counter to God's plan or it's right in sync with God's plan, but it isn't changing God's plan. Thus, as droxford was stating in his original post, the prayer was useless.

Maybe maybe no. But that really wasn't the point of the original discussion. The question was: does prayer change God's plan, and the answer seems to be "No".

 

plan- directions or steps given to follow so that results are achieved

I don't think it is outside his domain, that's why I pray alot.

I'm trying to state clearly that just because God designed cause and effects does not demand that He control choices or causes. God does not cause evil but certainly it is a part of the system He designed. Genetics was designed by God but God is not the only effect upon genetics.

I have not stated that cancer or anything else was outside God's domain, I have pointed out to you clearly that God's choice to intervene in any situation is just that- His choice and prayer is one avenue of appeal to God prior to Him making a free choice.

This whole idea of praying or petition is only a small slice of prayer and really doesn't give the entire perspective of what prayer to God really is for a Christian. There is much more to prayer than asking God to do something.

This is where you are very wrong from a bible perspective- God's plan is for people to have a spiritual encounter with Him. That is the plan. God does not plan cancer for some people and perfect health for others. God plans for people to encounter Him through all the variables of life. When Bill is praying for Bob he is asking God to encounter Bob in a way that results in Bob's recovery.

KISS principle- Bill prays because he believes God will do something, so he simply asks God to do something for Bob. There are many factors that determine how God will respond to that prayer.

This is what you struggle with, you don't understand those factors and so you assume prayer is useless.

Prayer is a part of God's plan.
We have a need, we ask for His help.

Again this is a small part of what prayer is

 

Also-

don't misunderstand what I am saying regarding God's will and power. God has the power to see that His will is carried out, where He sees it to be wise He exercises that power. God has a plan what will be accomplished. Where He needs to He exercises His power to see that it is accomplished.

In the framework of God's will being accomplished He has given us free choice, and He certainly limits His control in most cases to keep our own decisions free and a choice.

The biggest influencers to our choices are often the causes to choices.

When something happens you have no choice- for instance you cannot choose your parents, you cannot choose your genetics, you cannot choose your time of birth, you cannot choose your brothers and sisters, you cannot choose your height etc- God can take credit for those things.

In the case of someone born with a disease, I'm OK with you saying that was God's will, but I am not OK with saying it was His original design or that it is not His will for that person to be cured if possible.

Often the things that happen to us depend upon the choices other people make. Alot of decisions are passed on to children. Often we receive the effects of others choices whether good or bad.

 

Bumping this thread since Droxford encouraged moving any debate regarding praying for Landlord Landry from the thread about him.

 

People pray because they believe their prayers will help. People may pray to feel that they are doing everything they can to help the person they are praying for or even themselves. Regardless of how you feel about religion or prayers, it seems understandable why people who do believe would pray.

I don't see the harm as long as you are not "in their face" about it if they don't want you praying around them.

 

To make both parties involved feel better or maybe just to make the person praying feel like they are contributing to the effort.

 

While you might not think so (and i don't hold it against you at all), can't you see that people who pray believe that their prayers help? While you personally don't see the point, can't you see that folks who pray DO see the point?

Imagine someone lying sick in the hospital and a community of folks praying for him to get better. While the person may eventually die, there is great comfort to him and his family knowing that there are prayers being said. At the very least, there is peace and comfort for the patient and his family during those troubling times.

 

You apparently think that praying to (a) God serves no purpose. That's fine. There are hundreds of millions of people who believe that praying to (a) God does serve a purpose. God may answer their prayer, He may not answer their prayer. He will give them comfort and hope.

Your question is that you don't understand the "saying a prayer" thing. You will never be satisfied with an answer because you apparently don't believe in prayer. I assume that if you saw concrete/scientific evidence that prayer works then you would find that answer.

Where I see a prayer being answered, you will see a coincidence or fate - correct? That being the case, there is no way to answer your question.

 

I can't speak for droxford, but what I was arguing was not that at all. If something does or does not happen, I can fully accept that someone believes it was the will of God (not coincidence or fate). What I have trouble understanding is people believing it was a (positive) answer to prayer. God supposedly has a plan for everyone. If he has a plan, doesn't that mean that their direction, fate, whatever-you-want-to-call-it, is predetermined? Thus, whether or not something happens is not the result of any prayer for intercession, but rather due to the grand design. So a prayer for intercession is useless for anything other than making the prayer-giver feel better. It's mental masturbation.

This is all somewhat akin to the old argument from free will. John Calvin is somewhere rolling in his grave.

 

Personally, I have no issue with the act of prayer. At the very least it can often have a placebo effect for those involved. That's all well and good.

My concern is the substitution of prayer for action. Seems to me, if we all accepted that prayer doesn't work, people would feel more inclined to offer actual aid, either by donating time or money to a cause.

For example, when the Japan tsunami hit, I knew that praying would do no good for anyone* so my only realistic course of action was to send money.



*even if God as we know it does exist, prayer is still pointless