Do you want Mcgrady back on the team for the vet min?

As you have overlooked my post again, the only reason I have mentioned it 500 times is because you keep bringing it up. I mentioned it originally as an example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, and it's never been anything more than that. Yet post after post, you and the rest of the coalition insist on warping it to mean that I am rewriting history. That I am saying Tracy is better than Moses. That I am a TOF. So I have to repeat myself, over and over again, spelling it out directly for you because you never get it. And from the looks of it, you still haven't.

I wasn't chastising the fact that you used a personal insult. I was laughing at the irony. Calling me lonely for posting on a forum in which you have twice as many posts...gold.

Once again, I applaud your attempt to turn the tables on me but as I've said before, I accept the facts. When have I dodged them? The difference between you and me is that when I claim something, I back it up with evidence. If I think your argument is fallacious, I tell you why and I do my best to explain. You, on the other hand, make baseless accusations using terms you don't know and often skip over entire points. The reason I am able to reply to you with quotes from the past is because you never read them. So you continue to reply using issues that have long since been addressed, and I have to repeat myself. This is now a common theme:

Am I dodging the facts here?

How about here?

Where am I dodging facts? The Tracy/Moses "comparison"? What fact am I dodging there? I presume (though I may be wrong) you do know the definition of fact, right? Kindly inform me.

As an aside, I'm noticing an increased usage of vocabulary and phrases I have used--whether or not you actually understand them--with each post you make. Adorable.

 

FINALLY. You're mad at Tracy because he failed to live up to expectations, and therefore judge his actions through emotion and not rational thought. I don't have a problem with your opinion, as it's your right to have, but watching you turn around and call anybody who has anything even remotely positive to say about Tracy "blind TOFs" is a bit ridiculous, and that's why I post on these threads.

 

wrong. there's more than his not meeting expectations.
there are blind TOFs and there are gigs of memory on the server to show you that they exist.

this sums it up in a nutshell about how Rockets fans feel.
http://www.clutchfans.net/news/1545/the_day_t-mac_lost_houston/

Please, this is not a member of the tinman coalition who wrote this. I'm a member of his coalition.

 

There were blind TOFs that the gigs of memory will prove. But much like the YOFs, they no longer have a reason to be here. What we are left with are Rocket fans, and yet you still talk about TOFs incessantly. Who here is a TOF, exactly?

If all of you could articulate your points like Clutch, we might be able to have a civilized discussion for a change. I saw where Clutch was coming from when I read that article, but it is a far cry from where you are coming from on the forums. Notice the absence of TOF talk. Notice the acknowledgement of his good years. Notice how he presents it as opinion, because that's what it is.

But here you are, with your coalition of the willing ready to banish all who disagree with you to the depths of TOFgatory. Here you are, going into every McGrady thread bringing up the same topics that have long since died. Here you are, posting thread after thread to take a passive aggressive jab at McGrady, then claiming that everyone else, not you, needs to get over him. You're okay with making excuses for Steve Francis, who quit on the Rockets the season before McGrady did, but fervently deny any excuses for McGrady.

I've said it before, but as per tradition when having to deal with the tinman coalition, I'll say it again. I don't really like McGrady myself. But I dislike your methods more. I dislike your faulty logic. I dislike your circuitous arguments. I dislike your double standards. I dislike your jaded pretentiousness. I dislike your inability to cope with differing opinions.

Once more, for good measure:

 

First off I never said that you said Tracy was better than Moses. Why don't you go back and re-read my post since you didn't understand them the first time. I said that your comparison is not worth a dime, no traction. This has happened to every team Tracy has been on. Tracy is on the team and it suxs he leaves and the team is healthy again. A clear history of Tracy, not Moses. I also said that no GM has said anything good about Tracy after his departure or firing. I also said that he is boo'ed and not cheered for upon his return. Are you still following? Are you going to skip these points? I also said he has left every single one of his teams on bad terms. Correct? Are you still following me? Will you skip these points as well? No one can say these things about Moses. No one can say he didn't lead the team he took to the finals. Can you? Can you say Tracy was a true leader? Did he lead by example? Did he take his team anywhere close to a competitive team that could sniff the Finals? Even when he was the NBA scoring leader his team was at the cellar.

Since you read so well, since you have your wiki page laid out and great a comprehension. I expect a answer to these questions. Don't just skip these points and go back to your name calling and comparison crap. It don't fly.

You keep saying me and my coalition. There's no one here but me. So answer. Did Tracy accomplish any thing other than personal milestones? Anything team wise?

 

Im no TOF fan by any means, i even heavily criticized him in his latter days with the Rockets, but we have to face the fact that the Rockets couldnt put a team around Tracy. Watching him play spoiled me at times, the guy could get any shot he wanted, create for anyone, and at times flat out take over a game. But the problem was timing and supporting players. When we finally had pieces around him, his body was breaking down, and when he was at his peak form (a top 3 player imo) two of his starters in the playoffs were DAVID WESLEY AND RYAN BOWEN in a playoff series rigged by gambling officials..

 

Well said. I didnt mean to say Francis should get WORSE treatment. Just saying how half of work is just showing up, and Francis didnt even CLOCK IN. Francis was out of sight/out of mind.

But basically in one sample size Francis showed what lazy disinterest REALLY is. The kind that is normally attributed to McGrady. Not trying to set the bar LOW for a star player, McGrady should demonstrate effort closer to Kobe than closer to the worst example. Its just to put McGrady's effort and passion level in perspective.

But there ARE different standards for different players. Circumstances are to be considered for each player. Like how Hasheem Thabeet is a #2 pick, expectations have adjusted and nowhere near as high as before. McGrady's circumstantial expectations was to DELIVER NOW, and though its NOT all his fault it is, in his own words, "on him" for not delivering.

 

Oh really? Here's the timeline:

You didn't understand, so I tried explaining further.

This guy thought I was saying Tracy is better than Moses, so I addressed that.

You still didn't understand, only saying that I "made no sense" and that I was "rewriting history."

So I asked you why they don't make sense, and you hit back with:

You don't elaborate on any of your claims. You only say that I have no point, which I have explicitly stated multiple times:

I provided other examples for you if Moses was insufficient.

Judging by this, you still don't get the point of the comparison. Here's another rehash from earlier:

Did I misrepresent anything here?

Uhh...you're right? I've never denied these points, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. There's a reason to skip over them lol, they're not up for debate because I'm not contesting it. As for the discussion at hand, they're not relevant points because, as I've said before, I'm not even comparing the players to each other.

That's the point, son. His team did better after his departure but that doesn't mean he was a bad player.

Have I said this before? Oh yes I have:

Did I...make these claims? You say that you never claimed I said Tracy was better than Moses. A few paragraphs down, here you are directly comparing them to "prove" that Moses is better than McGrady. Why? As you said yourself, I never said Tracy was better than Moses.

Well, I answered your "questions." Now answer the questions I have been asking you this entire time, since you're so against people eluding questions. Where have I misrepresented history? Why don't my points make sense? How am I holding on to the Moses comparison "for dear life" when you are the one that keeps bringing it up? How are my arguments fallacious? Do you even know what a logical fallacy is? Where am I dodging facts? Do you even know what a fact is?

No no no, you don't lead a coalition silly. You simply belong to one, not vice-versa.

Don't try to reverse the tables for the sake of reversing them. You will lose, because my methods are tailored for your particular brand of ineptitude. You're simply mimicking it and attempting to use it against me, which, while I applaud the effort, won't do you any good.

 

Trust me, Ive thought about it several times since these end up going the same exact way every time.

but I figger you guys are so infatuated with a player who doesnt even play on this team anymore, at least if I leave this open yall will keep it all in this thread and not crap all over other parts of the forum.

Have at it, but I am watching....get too liberal with the personal insults and I will flag you and shut this crap down toot-sweet.

 

Great thanks for pulling up all my post. Now find me a a line where I said that you said Tracy was better than Moses. You can't because I didn't. You also quoted Chenjy9, which makes no since I'm not him. By the way he didn't say it either.

You apparently are defensive about it because you know Moses was head n shoulders above Tracy, but that wasn't our point or mine at least. My point was these were some of the reasons your comparison doesn't wash. You could have picked out joe smoe and still come up with the same comparison. Why don't you try finding a player that was traded at least 3 times and in each of his three times of being fired team has done remarkably better soon after than when he was there? Here's a question so answer it. Since your so great at comprehension, answers normally come with a yes or no, or some sort of response to the question, unless your a politician, Or a self proclaimed fan of the art of rhetoric.

At the same time you admit to skipping points and finding others irrelevant. Why? This is a discussion? Do they not suit your needs? Are you in denial? Can you not comprehend? They are facts not comparisons. Comparisons are open for interpretation, where facts are black and white. Your whole argument is a comparison and name calling. This why you've drawn my attention. Thank you by the way your really pushing up my post count.

Now here's your double talk. If you reread your post above you state they are a good comparison, then in the next post you say I'm not directly comparing them. Which is it? Are you or aren't you? Or is it you only compare the parts you want to compare? Then you get upset when I compare them. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Maybe you should try a better comparison.

The fact is we have given you Facts but you say I agree. Well good, that's a start. But now you need to comprehend your own post and comparison.

The misrepresenting of history comes in when you "try" to put Moses situation in the same light as Tracy's. There is no comparison. Go back threw their entire careers. Understand what they did for their teams or didn't do in Tracy's case. Don't pick out the single part you want to and call it a true comparison. Use facts, use their whole careers or find a better comparison.

And finally as you ask me not to use your "methods", or what is know as the "Art of Rhetoric"
You don't like it do you, do you think you'll get lucky and scare me off by making me think I won't win? The thing Is I'm not trying to win just give you a dose of your own medicine, and it sure does feel good. So I'll be waiting for your reply. Lol.

 

Not sure if you care.....but....

Want to go on public record than Tinman brings down the quality of this forum for me.

People are welcome to thier opinions and free speech etc., but you literally cannot have even a neutral opinion of Tracy McGrady without inciting an all too often thread derailment by Tinman.

This has gone far beyond a difference of opinions and is approaching general harrassment to a group of people.

At what point does the line get drawn here?

 

Oh good god, this thread. Clicked to see how this was still an active topic and I regret it.

 

I agree with you in a sense. But you can't point the finger at anyone person. It's done by many on both sides of the aisle. The minute you say any thing negative about Tracy the wolves come out. We have a opinion as well. And get called many different names for it.

Tinman knows Rockets history well and he uses it, which tends to piss others off when their wrong.

Has there ever been a player that has divide this community like this? We have been divide on many things but to this extreme?

 

Can someone tell me how it is okay for McGrady to say the Lakers will win the championship when his team is still in the playoffs?

Honestly, I would think that would make most Houstonian turn against him. Seriously. Regardless what the reporter asked, how can McGrady (who is supposed to be the leader of his team) say another team is going to win the championship? Even though the Lakers did win, that's still wrong.

 

LOL I think all T-mac threads should be moved to D&D for eternal pissing contests.

 

LOL....

 

Wrong.

 

You sound like a complete idiot when compared to Cuddie.
You know why? Because your "rhetoric" is artificial.
Please just stop. You and tinman just start another board called "tracy sux" and circle jerk while hating on Tracy.

You won't be missed.

 

I think they can't handle that I post actual facts. especially debunking the non sense Moses Malone and Tracy scenario, then "it's on them".
It's obvious reaching for examples.

You realize no matter how many times you post the truthful and accurate article by Clutch "The Day T-mac lost the city of Houston", none of the TOFs would read it or even acknowledge it .

When people post that in his prime T-mac is a top 50 player of all time,
I post the actual list made by the NBA of the top 50 of all time.

And for larvs8 or whomever dislikes all my posts with youtube videos of real games, basketball reference.com stats to prove my points, and reposting articles by Clutch, they don't have to read it.

Looking at the poll, almost half of the people want him back and half don't.
We are speaking for the half that don't. Which is perfectly our right to do so.
And when we see things, being real Rockets fans, that appear off, like any comparison of analogy or even words on the same page that say Tracy and Moses, we are entitled to set the record straight on what we know was true.

So if the BORG TOFs on this board think that they can stop the Federation of Clutchfans, their resistance is futile.