Do you want Mcgrady back on the team for the vet min?

Funny what 12 pages of tinman indoctrination can do.

You can go ahead and skip over Ron Artest, Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis, Carmelo Anthony, and Amar'e Stoudemire. It was only because McGrady left that those teams found success.

But McGrady sure ruined that Pistons team fresh off the ECF...oh wait, no. He joined a Pistons team that had just gone 27-55.

No, don't bother with facts. You keep on presenting your compelling evidence.

Saved you the trouble.

 

I can't believe this thread is still alive. The question has two answers, a short one and a long one.

The short answer is:
No!


The long answer is:
Noooooooooooo!

 

Don't twist history. The Knicks got McGrady so they could clear space for some real free agents.

 

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AFs68mKOasQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

For TOF's love is blind and excuses are plenty, always "what if". They don't believe the facts. The fact that every team he plays for goes no where. The fact that the teams get better once he's gone. The fact that he always leaves on bad terms. The fact he is not a leader. The fact that even when he was a NBA leading scorer he couldn't get his team out of the 1st round, even in the East Conference. Lol.

The fact is that I love when someone post a thread claiming how great he is, it's pretty comical.

Yeah, let's bring him back.....he's great, the best. Only if he had Hakeem could he get out of the 1st round. But Hakeem would probably throw him of the roof of the Toyota center.

 

Twist history? For all your talk of "TOFs" not being able to read, you sure are terrible at reading comprehension. I'm not even sure where you would get the idea that I believed the Knicks got McGrady for any other reason but to clear cap, but you go ahead and keep focusing on that.

You realize the guy you're quoting...created this thread, right?

And who are you talking to here, exactly, that doesn't believe his teams "go nowhere"? That blindly love the guy? You're arguing with "TOFs" that don't exist, using points that aren't even up for debate and have been hashed over time after time again. And yet you and the circular argument brigade keep going there whenever someone brings up anything that can be seen as remotely positive about Tracy.

Using your logic though, Moses Malone was a horrible failure simply because the Rockets got better after he left. See how easy that was? See how idiotic that was?

I'm don't think anyone is on this board because they only like Tracy McGrady. They would have left over a year ago, because there's nothing left for them here, similar to the mass exodus of YOFs when Yao announced his retirement.

I'm convinced, however, that there are a large number of posters here who are solely concerned with hating on McGrady. You see them everywhere, from threads about Tracy tweeting that Yao should be in the HOF to his charitable contributions. They sing the same old tired song about his second round virginity, lack of leadership, his unforgivable betrayal of Houston by standing at midcourt during a 20-point blowout in January.

For these people, hatred is blind. And they won't stop until their hatred is heard. Actually, they won't stop even after their hatred is heard. Again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again...

 

If your convinced there are a large number of posters here solely on hating Tracy, then you got your answer. The answer is clearly "NO", unless your looking for something different. Sounds like you know the reasons we don't want him back but refuse to accept it.

It's a two way street, buddy. Why are you spending so much of your time defending him. It's over he's gone, leave it be. But yet this comes up over and over again and again. You tell us we don't have a right to state the facts? Are we lying about something? Making it up? Did he get out of the 1st round while I wasn't looking? Did he finish his contract and leave his teams on good terms?

I do take it personal when posters put him on some pedestal, when if fact IMO he disgraced the city, the Rockets and again IMO set this franchise back many, many years. If you slap a family member of mine, I take it personal. He made it personal and TOF's make it personal when the say his teammates weren't good enough. His teammates were our Rockets and he was the one that was the cancer. If a doctor removed cancer from your sister would you want them to put it back? Even if they said it was ok when you knew it made her sick?

Get a grip, if someone is gonna try to tell me Tracy was one of the best players in the league or Rockets for that matter and he was just unlucky because his teams weren't good enough expect me to defend my team like I would my mom. If they want to put the cancer back in, I'll rip the doctors hands off.

If your tired of Rockets fans defending the Rockets, then your the one who's miss guided. You know how we feel, now move on.

Last I knew this was a Houston Rockets board, not a Tracy board. Let him go. -RIP Tracy Mcgrady.

 

Once again, I didn't start this thread, and I don't want Tracy back. I'm just tired of seeing this pathetic rhetoric, if you can even call it that, being repeated ad nauseum by the tinman coalition.

There are people who don't want him back for logical reasons. He's past his prime, he needs the ball to be effective, we're stacked at his position, we're rebuilding, we don't need him, he didn't end on good terms with us. With those reasons I have no qualms, and I wholeheartedly agree with them.

Then you have people like yourself and the rest of the tinman coalition, or the circular argument brigade. (I can't decide which name I like better.) You show up on every Tracy McGrady thread, and whether it's relevant or not you post diatribe after diatribe all revolving around the same tired topics. Like you said, it's over, he's gone, let it go.

I've let it go. I don't revere Tracy as some sort of omnipotent basketball god that can do no wrong. I acknowledge his faults. I acknowledge that every team he's been on didn't made it out of the first round. He is selfish. He says stupid things to the media. These are points we can agree on.

It's when you take your personal opinions and start spewing them like they're irrefutable facts that I take issue. He hasn't made it out of the first round. Toronto, Orlando, and Houston have made it out of the first round after his departure. Those are facts. But you take those facts, and extrapolate them to a ridiculous degree to "prove" that he is a cancer, that he has no work ethic, or any other subjective interpretations of him. The end result is not a fact. "Good terms" could mean any number of things. Same with "disgracing the city" and, of course, "setting back the franchise any number of years." These are all ripe for discussion.

As I've shown you before, it's very easy to use your way of "argument." Moses Malone was on the Rockets. They did not win a championship. Moses Malone left the Rockets. They won two championships. Ergo, Moses Malone is a failure. Doesn't make it right.

I am a fan of the languages. What I am witnessing is an absolute disgrace to the art of rhetoric. Clashing opinions be damned, the number of logical fallacies the circular argument brigade employs is staggering. Whether I agree with you or not, I am compelled to dismantle such arguments as an officer of the internet police. Heh.

So in response to your last sentence, no, I am not tired of Rockets fans defending the Rockets. I am tired of Rockets fans flinging recycled poo at each other. I am tired of your coalition of the willing fighting an imaginary enemy in the "TOFs." I am tired of you passing off your opinions as fact. I am tired of you running around in circles. I am tired...of you.

 

Why the hell is this still in GARM? Can a moderator move this crap already?

 

You argument makes no sense. if you've let it go what are you doing here being part of the problem or so call throwing poo at each other? Because your self proclaimed title of the internet police? Lol. You said you agree with all his faults and your defense is you didn't start this thread. Spin, spin, spin....

Well I didn't start this thread neither. It sounds more like you have a problem with Tinman. Is that it?

You said, and I quote:
"There are people who don't want him back for logical reasons. He's past his prime, he needs the ball to be effective, we're stacked at his position, we're rebuilding, we don't need him, he didn't end on good terms with us. With those reasons I have no qualms, and I wholeheartedly agree with them"

You also said:
"I acknowledge that every team he's been on didn't made it out of the first round. He is selfish. He says stupid things to the media. These are points we can agree on. "

You also said:
"He hasn't made it out of the first round. Toronto, Orlando, and Houston have made it out of the first round after his departure. Those are facts."

If we agree on these points then what's the problem? The only sense I can make out of your argument is the you don't think he is a cancer, that he has a good work ethic and he didn't disgrace the city.

Would you say he's left on good terms with any of his teams? No team begged him to stay, the fans boo him upon his return. How can "on good terms" mean any number of things? Do you not know when your on good terms with somebody? Did the GM's say good things about him after he was traded? Don't spin the truth, let it go.

Disgracing the city could be argued, but did he make the city proud? Of coarse not. Do we as fans have more pride or less pride of our team before or after his arrival? Did he not stick his foot in his mouth time and time again. Did he not say the Rockets would lose to the Lakers in the playoffs in the middle of a playoff series? I consider him a disgrace, but this is everyone's personal opinion.

Setting the franchise back years could be debatable as well, but what can't is that his time he didn't help the team in the long run.

As far as cancer, well that's a personal opinion as well, I guess. I do know that when someone is sick and something is removed and they get better that, that thing was making them sick. Maybe he wasn't cancer but just a virus. It is a fact that many of his teammates weren't happy with him. That the Roxs got out of the 1st round and gave the Lakers a run for their money before Yao got hurt while Tracy sat in street clothes. He called the Lakers to win the series, pathetic.

And why would you bring up Moses Malone, to make a point. And the point is? I just don't get how it has anything to do with your argument or Tracy. I didn't see Moses play so I can't comment, but it sounds like you threw a hand full of poo.

Are you a Rockets fans? If so, tell me how? Or is it really you just have a problem with Tinman. You acknowledge many of Tracy's faults. But here you are feeding the poo that is getting slung. It takes two to tango. Without you what would we do? I ignored this thread for a while but you drew me into it. Thanks. Lol.

The is no so called Tinman coalition, just Rockets fans. What are you?

 

You're kidding yourself, and I'm not sure why it struck you as a good idea to play the "I'm a better Houston fan" game.

If there's not an anti-Tracy troupe on Clutchfans, how do you explain this entire thread? I don't mind the discussion and I don't like personal attacks, (I generally respect Tinman and have repped him a few times until the board falls back into a Tracy McGrady debate) but lets check out the top 10 posters in this thread:

tinman 25
chenjy9 15
_RTM_ 11
cuddie 10
knote32 8
napalm_black 8
Severe Rockets Fan 8
SugarLandDream8 8
VBG 8
tcadriel 7

It doesn't look like anyone has an agenda, to you? I know I do, I'm an a-hole in McGrady threads because I prefer not standing idly by while TMac fans are criticized for supporting a former Rockets player. Earlier I was lamenting the existence of this thread, but the more the hater talk has grown the more entertaining banter we can have!

I don't need to bother denying that he was a whiny, egotistical crybaby, because he clearly was. When someone shows me an example of Tracy directly saying negative things against the city of Houston or a specific teammate, I'll join in the exaggerated hatred dance that you guys have perfected. His "woe is me" or "it's on me" quotes are irritating, but nothing worth blowing up for five years.

 

I'll add another post!

There is no tinman coalition.

But it's a great idea. We can form the Clutch fans version of the avengers.

 

Haha. It would be entertaining at least. I guess I can start calling you Tin Fury.

 

The Rockets could have won Game 7 against Utah, but McGrady didn't want the ball at winning time. His supporters may say he was tired, but his behavior was Lebron-like. After that I knew he wasn't taking the Rockets anywhere.

 

I'm not claiming to be a better fan than anyone, but a Rockets fan I am. When he calls me some part of a Tinman coalition it becomes a joke. I'm just calling it as I see it, not because Tinman says.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but some have Tracy on a pedestal so high that they would rather kick the team and teammates right in the balls rather than accept any blame for Tracy. Things like his teams weren't good enough, the "ifs" and always passing the buck tend to set me off. Some accountability is a start and Tracy fans don't seem to have any.

I came to this website out of my love for the Rockets and my disgust for Tracy. I had to find somewhere I could vent. It's that simple, not because of Tinman. Even though I do consider Tinman to be one of the better posters on this board. I have much respect for you as well, but no one will convince me Tracy was anything other than cancer.

I guess I will self anoint myself as a internet police as well.

I will not let anyone kick the team in the balls for the sake of one player. There is no "I" in team.

You and I agree on one thing because I was also "was lamenting the existence of this thread, but the more the hater talk has grown the more entertaining banter we can have!", and now here we are. Throwing poo, good cop, bad cop. Right and wrong, Rockets fans.

The funny thing is that Cuddle and yourself seem to agree with most of our argument on Tracy, but here we still are...silly because I still don't understand your guys point. You agree with us on Tracy's short comings but still argue a point where there's none.

 

You have obviously missed the point. I don't have a problem with people who dislike Tracy McGrady, because--as you have so cleverly ascertained--I don't particularly like the guy either! I have a problem with people who act like vehemently hating McGrady is the only option for a tru3 r0ck3t f4n.

I've let Tracy McGrady go. I'm a Rockets fan, and that's why I'm here. You idiots keep polluting the board with your "TOF" talk and forcibly instill a chasm based on your ridiculous pretense of absolutes. If you don't think Tracy is the devil, you're automatically a TOF who hates the Rockets. If you do, however, you have achieved fan immortality. See how that gets annoying? THAT is what I haven't let go. It takes two to tango, but the circular argument brigade seems intent on blasting salsa music everywhere they go, retirement announcements and all.

The issue is even further exacerbated by your ass-backwards logic, which I attempted to demonstrate with a Moses Malone example. You...didn't seem to get it, but just compare what you said about McGrady's former teams finding success to my example. Hell with it, I'll spell it out for you.

Tracy in Orlando. Orlando no win playoff. Tracy leave Orlando. Orlando win playoff. Tracy = cancer.
Nevermind Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis, or Jameer Nelson joining the Magic. It was because Tracy left.

Moses in Houston. Houston no win championship. Moses leave Houston. Houston win two championships. Moses = cancer.
Nevermind Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Vernon Maxwell or Robert Horry joining the Rockets. It was because Moses left.

See how stupid that argument is? There are other ways to argue that McGrady was a cancer without sounding like an idiot.

The point is that your arguments are trite. They've been repeated over and over again, yet you and the tinman coalition keep bringing them up. You don't like that name you say? It's not true? Well I suppose you understand what it's like to be called a TOF as a Rocket fan, then.

You may be surprised to hear this, but the majority of the time I'm not even defending Tracy McGrady. I'm simply seeing fallacious arguments and addressing them. You're arguing with blind emotion over logic, saying that our teams didn't suck because they're OUR Rockets. It's akin to a dad being told that his kid sucks at basketball. It's tough to accept, but eventually you should come to the realization that lil' clutch isn't all that great, if you're rational. Some dads, however, never accept this. How DARE you say my child sucks?! You suck! Etc. To see you turn around and call those who oppose you blind is, well, a bit ridiculous.

I mean, who here exactly is placing Tracy on a pedestal? If anything, you're placing the Rockets on a pedestal by thinking that Ryan Bowen as a starter a good team makes. I'm a lifelong Rockets fan, and I'll continue rooting for lil' clutch no matter how badly he sucks. But I accept that we've never really had a great team in over a decade. Maybe you should too.

 

Stop mentioning Moses Malone here. Moses won the MVP with the Rockets and took the team to the NBA finals.
Tracy did not do that for the rockets or any team.
It's fantasy for a rockets fan to even compare the two.

Moses brought respect to the rockets, not excuses.

 

Meh... kind of hard to like someone who had not led the Rockets anywhere. A player who has as little post season success as T-Mac, has no right to throw anyone under the bus. My biggest beef with TOF is that while they are perfectly willing to put T-Mac up with the best of them, they get all butt hurt when we point out that every single one of those great players they compare T-Mac to has not only gotten out of the first round, but enjoyed consistent postseason success. They tell us it is not his fault, that he was the victim of bad teammates, a victim of bad organizations, and a victim of being misunderstood. At what point in time will they consider that there can only be so many coincidences and the majority of the responsibility falls on the so-called franchise player.

 

Are you actually serious about the Moses Malone post? Moses was widely respected as a tough, determined, and hard worker. This is like the complete opposite of the stigma that follows T-Mac from team to team. Malone took Rockets to the finals. I am not sure how math works in T-Mac world, but I am pretty sure that for most people, 1 Finals appearance >>>>>>> any T-Mac individual accomplishments and 0 2nd round appearances.

 

Fair enough. I'm not defending TOF's, I would never defend any "OFs". I would just like to see TMac, the man himself, get his act together and have some success. I remember good times among the bad times.

Yours isn't the mentality that I take issue with. It's the one that says 'there were never any good moments with TMac' and he was evil to begin with. I just beg to differ.