The system has always been for the affluent, and that is not going to change easily, I think that you have to try to BECOME afluent rather than try to steal from them. I am on their side - not ignorant of what you are saying, just think it is completely useless on this topic as it had nothing to do with the riots, which were completely opportunistic. Now, as for the punishment of these hoodlums, I would not be sending them to jail, I would be forcing them to hard labor to fixing what they destroyed......and if they don't show up, I would cut off their benefits...see how quickly the absent parents get involved then. DD
Glad they are investigating, and they should be punished, it might have been the spark, but was not the cause of the riots. DD
It has everything to do with the riots. What better way to instigate a riot (active anger against one's own community) then to make the community seem exclusive to certain classes? Jeez, are you familiar with any history?
I am familiar with people like you over thinking the issue and trying to rationalize irrational behavior. This was about criminality, not class warfare. DD
BTW - The Free Market is not always about kicking people, it is about the opportunity, and while the odds may be long, at least you have a CHANCE to better your station. And, I have had personal experience seeing that in play, so I side on the "You can do it" bit of things, rather than the "It can't be done" side of the equation. DD
God, you're obtuse. I'm not rationalizing anything. I've repeatedly condemned the behavior. You're pretending that the "system" has no responsibility. You're also rationalizing similar behavior from the "system" itself, inasmuch as it benefits your POV. Every attempt to point out a skew has been met with "well yeah, so you should try to get yourself in the group that receives the most skewed benefits". This avoids the alternative solution of eliminating the skew itself. The simple fact of the matter is that the market system only allows for potential equality after you liberate the people to pursue their ends equitably (i.e., everyone needs an equal opportunity - this is the crux of Adam Smith's thesis). Inasmuch as the system is skewed this is impossible, and the rest of your argument consequently falls apart. If you're going to demand that each person has responsibility for their own actions, you better make sure it's applied consistently, or you're brewing discontent. Does this justify violence by the those discontents? Of course not, but it bloody well deserves their ire. More importantly I think it begs that we ask who has the best opportunity to prevent further civil strife. Blah.
Add this to the phone hacking scandal and the police's failure to act or even complicity in that scandal and it seems like a very bad time for England's police force.
I'm just glad that the EPL isn't canceled for this weekend save for the Tottenham and Everton game. Maybe a weekend of soccer will calm things down?
Just because I choose to look at this as a simple act of mob behavior and criminality and not condemn the system does not mean we should resort to name calling. The system had little if anything to do with the riots, it was something that caught on, and people joined in....there was no political message, it was just a bunch of kids (for the most part) rebelling, which is what kids do. If you want to blame a system, blame the lack of parenting, the FAMILY or lack of it, is more to blame than what you are trying to shoe horn this into, IMO. Is there class warfare - sure.... Is this it? - NOPE ! And I feel sad for people that have given up on the American dream, or don't believe it can happen to them, I am surrounded by successful people, I have sold 3 companies myself and made myself a very comfortable lifestyle, I have seen one of my best friends sell his company for $27 million bucks at the age of 23, I have another friend who made a movie for $5,000 after doing a Pharmaco survey to fund it, and now has his own movie studio in Austin and makes fairly popular flicks and employes more than 50 people. I am surrounded by successful people living the dream, just because it may be improbable, does not mean it is not possible...... Don't give up on your dreams, go for it....life is too short to worry about failing every now and again. DD
Positive advice no doubt, and congratulations to you and your peers for being 'successful' (different meaning for different people), however, I think too many people in your probable income bracket (top 6%, $100k+) have a bubble-perception about how social mobility works in America nowadays. I've been guilty of it too. But your statement reminds me of someone I know. He attended the best private schools and Ivy League universities for education (works for a huge private equity firm) and he dismiss people who say the American Dream is dead. What do his friends do/work for? The IMF, World Bank, State Department, UN, Goldman Sachs, Obama admin, etc. This isn't against you personally, rather, it's directed at claims that the American Dream still exists (though it used to be better, supporters will admit). My claim: it can't be called the American Dream if it only applies for less than 1/10 of the country (about $80k+/year, which is very modest income). Advanced degrees, living in large houses, traveling overseas, driving luxury cars, buying organic-only grocery, access to quality health-care, what have you = most Americans can't afford that lifestyle.
You know Robert Rodrigues? [Spy Kids] I read his book. He had been using movie cameras since a very early age. he took advantage of opportunities which included some nice connections that are not available to just anyone . . . true enough IMO You tend to play things both ways if someone takes a risk and wins. . .you hurray them and praise them when they do . . and it does not pan out. . . you point to them as a morality tail and how foolish they were. He was not working and living off his wife to make his dream happen had it not worked out . .. i wonder would you be as kewl with him or at least kewl enough to point to him in you 'group' you pointed out those successes. . . how many examples of these risk takers that failed do you have to throw around? but don't take anomolies and act like they are the norm Rocket River
Egyptians .. Libyans etc... . should work within the system .. . or is the working within the system thing. . only for systems you favor? Rocket River
Everyone took a risk, Robert funded his movie by doing a survey on Cholesterol, he was pretty much broke, and how I met him was the guy that was also doing the survey, and became the lead in El Mariachi was my college roomate, Peter Marquardt. And we founded Digital Anvil together which we sold to MS in 2001. As for successes and failures, you have to be willing to risk to have that life changing event, and that means you could fail....I will give you an example. In 1993, I was in Houston working as a sales rep for PC systems, primarily selling to government installations and school districts, I was doing great at it, making in excess of $130k per year, when I got an offer to move to Austin and do what I loved, making computer games. I spoke to my wife, who was making about $30k for MHMR in Houston, and uwe moved to Austin with me taking a job at Origin systems making $36,000 a year as an associate producer. We took more than $100k a year off our income to move to Austin. I left with my boss a year later to start Digital Anvil, the company we sold to MS, 6 years later. Then, after MS bought us, I started a small company called Fever Pitch Studios, the publisher pulled our contract, when we had 9 employees including me, we had about $300k in the bank as a company, we decided as a group to create a demo for the same publisher that just yanked our deal for a LOTR game which they had the rights to.... I was in my early 30s, had about 30k in the bank, and a 2 year old baby in the house, I paid my employees, and did not pay myself...we worked for 5 months on the demo and exhausted the money, but won the new $5 million dollar contract......I eventually sold Fever Pitch to Warthog in the UK, and made a lot more than the money I could have taken when we first lost our contract. That is the type of risk I am talking about, the ability to go "all in" and work like crazy to make it work out, hustle your arse off.....it worked out great for me, and Robert, and my friend that sold Origin... That is not to say everyone is a success, clearly they are not, and I don't attribute any of the success to luck, I think it is all about recognizing opportunities and pursuing them with everything you have. You can not be afraid to fail, it happens a lot, but success is so much sweeter due to failures that we incur. Now to balance it out, I started a new company in 2007, that was seeking funding that never made it, that failed, but that is ok, learned a lot from it, and came out stronger in the end, started doing turnarounds for companies, and have made a fine life out of consulting. Now, I have been asked to come back and lead a new company making mobile games etc....and will accept that in October...looking forward to a new challenge and hopefully making the new company worth a lot of money and cashing out again. Life is about the rollar coaster, ups and downs, but man....the ride is something else. DD
Look, I realize that most folks here are younger than I, and may think the American dream is dead, but I am here to say, it is not dead at all, you just need to find your passion, and pursue it. The road is littered with failures, just step over those, and keep marching towards your own success, define your goals personally, and you will reach them, make your own American Dream. Surround yourself with successful people, learn what they are doing right, and what they are doing wrong, and adjust your own MO accordingly. Not everyone is built to be a success, everyone wants to be, but not everyone takes the time to teach themselves HOW to be, and then have the fortitude to stick to the plan and make it work. Some people would rather have the security of someone else taking the risk, and that is fine, let them define their own American dream as such, a good family, a good life, a good job, that in itself is it's own dream. If you are not dreaming bigger than you are, then you are not dreaming. DD
DaDakota - since you don't seem to be actually listening to anything anyone is typing, I'm just going to go ahead a say it - you're clueless about American society. You're familiar with an incredibly narrow slice of it, but that slice isn't even in the same pie as the experiences of most people. I just want to ask you ... do you think there's any possibility at all that you're being nearsighted - only seeing what you're familiar with - in your observations?
Hey all you UK rioters, this one's for you: <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3PKQDsuZHk0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
