The important thing to take from this thread is that: Saladin and Allah Akbar = muslim Knights Templar, God and Martydom = not a real christian anyway
No true Scotsman is an intentional logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it. Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing." —Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
I will refrain, to avoid the derail of a third thread. Instead, here's another article: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/26/norway.terror.attacks/index.html?hpt=hp_c2 [rquoter]Attorney: Norway suspect surprised attacks succeeded Oslo, Norway (CNN) -- Norwegian massacre suspect Anders Behring Breivik was "a little bit surprised" that he was able to pull off a bombing and shooting rampage in which he is accused of killing 76 people in total, his lawyer said Tuesday. His client was surprised that his plan "succeeded -- succeeded in his mind," attorney Geir Lippestad said at a news conference, adding that Breivik didn't expect to reach Utoya Island, where he is accused of shooting 68 people dead Friday. Breivik also used drugs before the attacks Friday that were designed to keep him strong and awake, his attorney said. Lippestad said it was too early to say if Breivik will plead insanity. Asked if his client was insane, he responded: "Yes, he may be." He added: "This whole case indicates that he's insane." Lippestad said it was "very difficult" to describe Breivik's manner -- "he is not like anyone." Norwegian police released the first four names of victims of Friday's terror attacks Tuesday afternoon. Three of the four identified were killed in a bombing outside government offices in Oslo, in which eight people died. They were Tove Ashill Knutsen, 56, Hanna Orvik Endresen, 61, and Kai Hauge, 32. The fourth, named as 23-year-old Gunnar Linaker, died on Utoya island. The police said they would post an update at 6 p.m. every day, until all the victims have been identified. Their families will be notified first. Lippestad said Breivik had told him he was in touch with two terror cells in Norway and in contact with other cells abroad, but that he acted alone in carrying out the attack on Utoya and the Oslo bombing. "He says there are several cells around the western world -- where, I do not know," Lippestad said. Breivik is cooperating with police inquiries, "but he won't talk about the other cells," he added. His client considers himself to be "in a war," Lippestad said. He believes his client can get a fair trial, he added. The police declined to say how many people are still missing, saying the number was still subject to change. They have said in the past that they were searching for four or five people. Forensic scientists are still searching Utoya for clues, and the island will remain closed to the public for at least two weeks, Norwegian Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim said. Other countries are involved in the Norwegian investigation into last week's attacks, police said in response to a question about Breivik's claim to have been in contact with terror cells abroad. They declined to name the other countries, saying "the investigation is in Norway." They also declined to say where Breivik is being held. Prosecutors are considering charging Breivik with crimes against humanity, according to police. He is facing terror-related charges that carry a maximum 21-year sentence. Geert Wilders, a Dutch politician whose Freedom Party is referenced in a manifesto apparently written by Breivik, condemned the suspect's alleged actions Tuesday. Wilders said he was not "responsible for a lone idiot who twisted the freedom-loving anti-Islamization ideals" of his party. Meanwhile, U.S. President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden visited the Norwegian ambassador's residence in Washington Tuesday to "offer condolences to the people of Norway after the tragic killings that occurred last week," according to a White House statement. Earlier, Breivik's father said his son should have killed himself instead of allegedly going on the killing spree. "In my darkest moments, I think that rather than killing all those people, he should have taken his own life," Jens Breivik said in an interview with Norway's TV2. He said he also believes his son has mental issues. "He must be. He must be," the father said in response to a reporter's question about whether he thought his son was mentally ill. "There is no other way to explain it. A normal person would never do such a thing." Breivik's father had a message for all the victims during his interview. "I would like to say that I feel an incredible grief and despair over what has happened. I often think of how terrible it must be for those who are affected by this. I wish I could do something for them, but here I am, powerless to do anything," the father said. Lippestad said Breivik does not know what his father said. He said he does not know if any of Breivik's family members have asked to see him. Breivik's father, who was interviewed at his home in France, said he would not be visiting his son as the legal process continues. "No. I will never have more contact with him," he told TV2. The suspect's father was one of many people searching for answers Tuesday after the mass killings that terrorized Norway last week. Authorities revised the death toll from Friday's attacks to 76 on Monday -- eight from the bombing at the Oslo building that houses Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg's offices and 68 at the island summer camp run by his ruling Labour Party. At a news conference Tuesday, hotelier Petter Stordalen pledged to give 5 million kroner ($923,000) to rebuild Utoya Island. He promised it would be "a new Utoya, a Utoya for everyone. It's been a summer camp for the Labour Party, now it's to be an island for everyone." Eskil Peterson, a leader of the Labour Party's youth movement, the AUF, said the party had first been shocked and now was mourning those killed. That sorrow will intensify when police release the identities of all those killed, he said. "When we see those names, it will be heartbreaking for everybody," he said. The 32-year-old suspect acknowledged carrying out the attacks but said they were necessary to prevent the "colonization" of the country by Muslims, a judge said Monday. Breivik accused the Labour Party of "treason" for promoting multiculturalism, Judge Kim Heger said after a closed hearing Monday. According to Heger, Breivik also said that he worked with two cells to launch the attacks, the deadliest onslaught in Norway since World War II. Police refused to comment on the claim, but a police official said Breivik appeared to be "very calm" during his hearing. Almost 200,000 people participated in a memorial Monday in downtown Oslo to honor the victims, authorities said. Trains were halted as part of a nationwide observance, and Oslo Mayor Fabian Stang said the turnout showed that Norwegians do not accept violence. Breivik hates democracy and all who believe in it, his lawyer said Tuesday. He added that his client felt the rest of the world didn't understand his point of view but that they would in 60 years' time. He is undergoing a medical examination, Lippestad told reporters. Breivik is now "very tired" because of his circumstances, he said, but he was not injured when he was taken into police custody. Marit Andersen said she knew Breivik in high school and described him as an entertainer who had friends and was quite successful in school. Andersen said she later saw Breivik's views change. "Later, it became more extreme, and I remember after we all got on Facebook, I became friends with him there," Andersen said. "He had some rather outrageous statements there. I had commented on something he said. ... I said you can't say stuff like that. It's unacceptable." Breivik appears to have written a 1,500-page manifesto that rants against Muslims and lays out meticulous plans to prepare for the attacks. In it, the author vilifies Stoltenberg and the Labour Party, accusing it of perpetuating "cultural Marxist/multiculturalist ideals" and indoctrinating youths with those ideals. The author accuses the Labour Party of embracing those ideals and allowing the "Islamification of Europe." CNN has not independently confirmed that Breivik is the author of the manifesto, which bears his name and says it is intended to be circulated among sympathizers. The writer rails against Muslims and their growing presence in Europe, and calls for a European civil war to overthrow governments, end multiculturalism and execute "cultural Marxists." It contains photographs of Breivik wearing what appears to be a military uniform that features an altered U.S. Marine Corps dress jacket with medals of the Knights Templar -- an order of Christian Crusaders who helped fight against Muslim rule of the Holy Land in the Middle Ages, but which was shut down 700 years ago. Breivik asked to wear a uniform to the court hearing but was not allowed to, Heger said. The judge said he ordered Breivik held in isolation for the next four weeks to ensure he has no opportunity to tamper with evidence, Heger said. The suspect has access to his lawyer but to no one else, and not to letters or news, court officials said. According to the Norwegian newspaper VG, which cited unidentified sources, Breivik told investigators during interviews that he belonged to a revived Knights Templar. He described the organization as an armed Christian order, fighting to rid the West of Islamic suppression, the newspaper said.[/rquoter] I don't believe him that he was in contact with other cells. I think he's trying to make his 'movement' look bigger than it is. The other thing that struck me is his father's reaction, now that I have children. If one of my children killed 5 dozen people, I think I'd probably have to come to the same conclusion -- everything good and sweet you may have experienced in life with that child is pretty much destroyed by the atrocity. You'd rather see the child dead than see him do something like that.
I don't know if he's on contact with other cells, but there definitely are other members of his movement. In fact, we see them every day.
I think it's inherently clear that this guy thought he was acting in the name of Christianity. Perhaps he was not so immersed in the daily Christian chores/values, but certainly, if you flip through the manifesto or even watch a youtube vid of the manifesto, you will see that he believes he is a soldier of the church and that he will be a martyr for the church. As mentioned in the thread, there are people who believe in a pre-Christian AND pre-Islam Norway and he is not one of them. That's the Christian equivalent of millitant Jihad, from an educated person, who wanted to have some drinks and some ho's just before the act, and made a decision to take people's lives, even some who may have agreed with him to further the agenda of the religion he is affiliated to - essentially extremist Christians. Religious terrorists never engage in the lovey-dovey side of their religion. More than likely, they believe that they are in a Jihad so important that it rightfully dwarfs the rest of their responsibilities. I thought we had learned that lesson.
Norway is not a very religious country at all. There is also a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the prophet. The whole turn the other cheek thing was revolutionary and insane at the time. The muslim religion is a little more straight forward in adopting the customs of the time. I think the dude was just bat **** insane. Like that Vtech shooter or Columbine guys.
I'm not sure how Norway's religiosity is related. Jesus in Christianity is not the equivalent of Muhammad in Islam. Jesus in Christianity is the equivalent of Allah in Islam. Given that the only text allegedly from Allah is the Quran, and the Quran sanctions peace all the time EXCEPT in a case where you have to defend yourself in the face of historically significant persecution, I don't think Allah and Jesus differ all that much. This is especially the case given that: (1) Jesus is a prophet of Allah according to Islam, and (2) the old testament (of which I assume the Christian God is the author) is far more violent than the Quran. I understand what you are saying, but I think you are equating the Hadith to the New Testament - these are two texts you can not compare because they are monumentally different in authorship (is that a word?), purpose, composition, and historical accuracy. As for bat**** crazy... Every terrorist is bat**** crazy. That's irrelevant and I wish people would stop saying that. To me it seems to imply that OBL was not bat**** crazy and in fact he was acting as a regular sane person would act in obedience to a good understanding of the Islamic religion. I do want to make it absolutely clear that I am not defending Islam nor am I blaming Christianity for this. This guy acted out of his own desire to start a much more sophisticated Al Qaeda style Christian network for defending against Islam. Unless Jesus spoke to him directly, Christianity IMO shouldn't be blamed for anything at all. Regardless, this guy was as much a Christian as OBL is a Muslim, so to stay consistent with the terminology we use, this guy is a Extremist Christian Terrorist. He's already claimed he has two cells.
Not correct. I see your tactical reasons why you are trying to interpret it that way, but it simply does not reflect what the lunatic himself stated he stands for.
It's plainly obvious that he does not consider nationalism to be a secular thing. He prayed to (what he perceived to be) the Christian God to give him stability or whatever during his mission. Did you read that? That means he expected the God he worshipped to be on his side. Which God did he worship? He's already labelled himself a Christian. The mere fact that this is controversial to some, IMO, points out insecurity. This man is a Christian and he is a terrorist. He is an extremist Christian terrorist. Moderation is not something to expect from an extremist. That does not mean that Christianity incited him to do it. Other people, historical figures, radical books, radical politicians, and being a bigot is what incited this guy to commit this crime. But if we are to stay consistent with the terminology (which I don't agree with) that has been applied to terrorists recently, this guy is purely an Extremist Christian Terrorist, and that doesn't mean anything bad for Christians.
I have come in here like once a week for the last couple years, and it doesn't suprise me that ATW and Mathloom are still arguing about the same, f'ing ****. Does anyone else notice this? It's the SAME F'ING LOOK! BLUE STEEL, FERRARI, LE TIGRE!!! I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!!!
