Oslo Attacks: Suspicion Falls on Attackers Rather than Religion I Don't Like

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=6240613&postcount=104

 

So you didn't manage to READ what you copied? I can understand not knowing when windmills, torpedoes, or rockets were invented. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head whether any of those predate Islam. On the other hand, most people have at least seen movies or television shows with warriors from Greek or Roman times in them. Besides, while ATW's post was a fine rebuttal, my post was funny.

 

93 people, mostly children, all at once, is rare even for extremist terrorists.

This guy is essentially calling for Jihad in the same way that OBL would call for Jihad. He's asking Christians to rise up in exactly the same manner that he's risen up against the "invasion".

As a person who looks somewhat Middle Eastern, I actually slashed Europe off my list of possible vacations spots.

This is serious and you are ignoring the realities. This type of terrorist is less monitored and more sophisticated, and therefore poses a greater threat than people in a cave in Afghanistan, or a Somali guy with an axe. Even the 7/7 London bombings had 52 people killed in addition to the 4 suicidal terrorists. That's 13 per dead terrorist.

Here we're talking about 93 (mostly children) per terrorist who didn't get shot and didn't kill himself.

I don't see the source of your clearly bull**** statistics (seriously, more than 8 in 10 Lebanese people? lol You probably have never been to Lebanon), but those kind of sentiments are not static. How long till European polls start coming in with "do you think attacks against the government are justified in order to fight the Islamic invasion?"

Do you want to wait till the problem is too big to control like it is with these millitant islamists? or do you want to nip this in the bud?

This is perhaps the most significant terrorist attack since 9/11. I hope it never comes to it, but if someone takes up this guy's cause, you will be regretful that you didn't take this thing seriously enough.

 

Because of the actions of one crazy idiot?

Seems unreasonable.

One of my offices is in an area of Munich (around the train station) where about 80 % of the people seem Arabic or Turkish (and yeah, I see a lot of fully-veiled women every day, ironically walking by right in front of the numerous strip joints near the train station). They seem to be just fine. Another office is in Berlin-Kreuzberg. Same picture.

 

Man I can imagine how pissed off you must be every day walking amongst these people you dislike so much.

 

Not at all. I buy from the Iraqi next door and always have nice conversations with him and his wife. Same with the Turkish shoemaker, although that guy pissed me off because it took him 5 more days to finish the work from the promised date.

My office in Berlin is very close to a Turkish restaurant called Hasir, they just kicked out Mr. Sarrazin and refused to serve him because an angry mob was chasing Mr. Sarrazin around in Kreuzberg. At a laundry service, I translated for one Arabic tourist who was screaming at the (German) guy working there because he was unhappy with something. Unpleasant. But I was in a hurry and wanted them to get it over with, the German guy did not speak English, and the Arab guy did not speak German.

I'm not pissed off at all. I enjoy the international atmosphere in Berlin-Kreuzberg more than the atmosphere around the train station in Munich, though. It's just a more run-down area.

I pretty much get along with everyone. No reason to be pissed off at all.

 

That is the point, this guy and it seems certain party members and there are others who share his view. These are extremists, so its probably 1 percent or less of the population easily, so we shouldn't begin to start generalizing, right?

Its pretty fair to say that a heavy majority of muslims don't get extreme thoughts or views from the religion, its the extremists in their regions and connections with the war/poverty or whatever and use religion as their vehicle to dignify their extremism(whenever we agree with them and say yes, its islamic in nature rather than you are just a crazy motherf, then we light another fire and say you are right in your logic).

It is like if we told this guy, yea its truly christian what you are doing and it will jsut give his actions some dignity when we know its not christian at all.


Also, to your above post. I think its great that we all know he has his particular views, yet he can remain diplomatic and cordial out in the community. I don't believe we all have to see things the same or view things similarly, but hopefully we can be mature and diplomatic regardless so i commend that.

 

Pulled directly from Pew.

More disturbing polls:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world

To Lebanon's credit, support for civilian targeted violence has decreased a little from 2002-2006. But it's still WAY, way too high for comfort.

 

It's just so random. I imagine there aren't many people who share this guy's views + passion for those views, so I think it's more likely someone else somewhere else in Europe would try to emulate him.

Honestly, I'm staying away from the Muslim-populated places. I'm saying no to the big cities in Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia, and England. This attack seems to be based on lots of planning, therefore I assume the least safe places are those where the target does not move much.

I think with the current debt issue and how it's likely to shake the confidence of the US economy, I won't be going to somewhere like Dearborne either.

This kind of radicalization is not too different than the guy who shot that democrat lady in the head just last year in the US. Can't remember the names. Reports of anti-Muslim crime is increasing, and I can be sensible and see that tension is boiling over. I don't wish to take sides, I just want to mind my own business.

 

It can't be blamed on anybody but himself. Would you blame J.D. Salinger for the death of John Lennon? Prevalence does have something to do with it.

Never fostered that way? No. Usually not fostered that way? Yes.

I'm not arguing they're more prevalent (no "therefore" about it, either), they *are* more prevalent.

Pointing out the truth/obvious is not "crapping on" something. Despite what how you like to see it. Nor is it "instigation". Where is this whining sense of victimization coming from?

You see a hate monger, I see somebody telling the truth. Your lack of knowledge about the problem of Islamic violence, abuse, and censorship in the world probably contributes to this view of yours, along with a knee-jerk liberal reaction to go screeching to the polar opposite of anybody who shows even the slightest hint of dislike or bias towards a group of people different from themselves (in particular, mooslims/"teh brown people"/etc), even if their reason for such distaste is firmly grounded.

Then it is obvious we shouldn't be discussing this.

You seem absolutely lost on debates of morality and religion, and you have absolutely no understanding of this issue or where I'm coming from or my motivations.

I gave it a fair chance, but this has been an absolute waste of time. I guess I shouldn't have expected much, given the circumstances under which this thread was started.

To borrow a BBS phrase, herp derp.

 

Double post.

 

Ironically, I spend most of my time in areas of the largest German cities that have a very high percentage of Muslims. So, if you are right, some of y'all might get your secret wish (if some right-wing lunatic tries to take out Muslims, he might take out the guy some of y'all think is a right-wing lunatic ).

 

Wish I could rep Stephen Colbert.:grin:

"When you see a guy driving the wrong way up a one way street you roll the bones and go ASIAN!"..

 

New Survey of Muslim Youth (Age 15 to 25) in Malaysia and Indonesia

1. The statement “Terrorism gives Islam a bad image” was endorsed by 55.3% to 27.2% among Indonesian youths and “Terrorism gives Islam a bad name” was endorsed by 59.3% to 39.8% among Malaysian youths.

2. The statement “Suicide bombers are needed to defend Islam” was rejected by 77.5% to 15.5% among Indonesian youths and 55.8% to 43.3% among Malaysian youths.

3. The question “Do you think the Quran should replace the 1945
constitution?,” was answered “no” by 75.3% to 20.4% of Indonesian youths, but “In your view, should the Quran replace the constitution of your country?,” was answered “yes” by 71.6% to 25.2% among Malaysian youths.

4. The statement “It’s OK to be gay or lesbian” was rejected by 98.8% to 0.6% among Indonesian youths (though note that the question did not ask about whether such behavior should be outlawed), and 99.4% to 0.5% among Malaysian youths.

5. The statement “The cartoonist who drew the image of the Prophet Muhammad had freedom of expression” was rejected by 70.5% to 19.7% among Indonesian youths and “The cartoonist who made the Mohamed-Cartoons had freedom of expression” was rejected by 82.8% to 15.5% among Malaysian youths.

6. The statement “Osama bin Laden is an Islamic liberation fighter” was endorsed by 51.1% to 28.1% among Indonesian youths and “Osama bin Laden is a freedom fighter” was endorsed by 62.4% to 33.3% among Malaysian youths. This makes me wonder whether the endorsement of “terrorism gives Islam a bad image” tends to include the view that Bin-Laden-style terrorism gives Islam a bad image, or tends to exclude it because so many view Osama bin Laden as a “freedom fighter” and thus presumably not a “terroris[t].”

7. The statement “I like the US more since Barack Obama became president” is endorsed by 50.2% to 40.5% among Indonesian youths, but rejected by 60.8% to 35.8% among Malaysian youths.

 

I quote this guy too often here, but regarding this particular spat I think he makes some good points.

Greenwald on terrorism and islam

One other thing - the lengths some folks are going to to try and distance this guy from Christianity are comically ridiculous inasmuch as the same arguments are used over and over to proclaim the opposite for the typical "Muslim" terrorist.

This dude is quite obviously a christian terrorist.

 

these polls don't mean much, they cover a small sample and it just can't represent a mass and can easily be manipulated. On jon stewart last week or so they showed different news organizations showing polls saying americans feel so and so about the tax and every news place had a different percentage supporting their specific view and there was just quite a variety and it showed how misleading these things cna be to reference

 

This is the actual source (Europol):

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/TE-SAT 2010.pdf

Some actual quotes from that report:

Key findings
• In spite of the fact that only one attack was committed in the EU, Islamist terrorists still aim to cause mass casualties, as demonstrated by the attempt to create an explosion on a flight between Amsterdam and Detroit in December 2009.
• Islamist terrorism is often facilitated through transnational contacts between individuals residing in many EU Member States and other parts of the world.
• Self-radicalised individuals may, if undetected, become serious security risks.
• EU nationals travelling to confl ict areas or attending terrorist training camps may pose a serious threat to the security situation in Member States on their return.
• The security situation in the EU with regards to Islamist terrorism is influenced by political developments in countries and areas outside the EU that include Iraq, Afghanistan, the Afghanistan/Pakistan border area, Somalia and Yemen.
• Islamist propaganda is attempting to influence Member States’ policies, including the outcome of general elections in EU countries.

This incident marked the end of a year in which only
one Islamist terrorist attack occurred in the EU, in
Italy. However, arrests of individuals on suspicion of
terrorism-related crimes committed indicate that a
range of activities took place in 2009.

According to information from the Member States,
of the 587 persons that were arrested in the EU in
2009, 110 individuals were reported as having been
arrested in relation to Islamist terrorism. This is a decrease of 41 % compared to 2008, when 187 persons
were arrested, and continues the trend of a steady
decrease since 2007 when the number of arrested
persons was 201. Once more, and similar to previous years, the largest number of arrests took place
in Spain (40) and France (37).


Radicalisation and recruitment
Radicalisation, especially among the young, and the adoption of extreme views are significant problems in several Member States.
The internet is a facilitating factor for (self-) radicalisation, a functionality that is aided by the development of social networking sites. In 2009, prominent websites advocating Islamist terrorism also developed new sections in Western languages, to widen their reach.

The Netherlands were targeted in a video released
on 12 April 2009 by al-Sahab, the media outlet of
AQSL. In this video, an individual is making a threat
in German against the Netherlands and Denmark,
because these countries allegedly insulted the
Prophet Muhammad.

The extent to which Islamist terrorist groups rely on the internet for disseminating their message became apparent in the summer of 2009, when several al-Qaeda-affiliated internet forums experienced technical problems, culminating in their ultimate closure on 10 September. This resulted in a delay of several days in the dissemination of propaganda addresses commemorating the eighth anniversary of the attacks of 11 September 2001.
Germany has become the focus of a determined propaganda campaign, in which threatening videos featuring German nationals are being broadcast on
the internet.

This campaign was an attempt to influence the outcome of the general elections in Germany and the country’s foreign policy.


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Also, there is the new report for 2010:


• 3 Islamist terrorist attacks carried out in the Member States
• 179 individuals arrested for Islamist terrorist offences
• 89 individuals arrested for the preparation of attacks in the EU
• Terrorist recruitment and support networks are active in many EU Member States
• The security situation outside the EU impacts on Islamist terrorist activities inside the EU

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/te-sat2011.pdf