How good was Yao when he actually played on the court?

I guess I was spoiled by watching Moses and Dream as a youth, because Yao doesn't light a candle to either one of them. Watch the 86 playoff videos again and listen to what the commentators were saying about Dream. How they had to double cover him and he would still score.. How they always had to a keep a body on him, or they would regret him.

Yao was pretty good, but there was never a significant dropoff in our record when he was injured. We often would play better. Yao definitely didn't make his teammates better.

 

Last time I checked they 'fronted' him by bringing over someone from the top of the key with ANOTHER PLAYER...you know, effectively double teaming him before he got the ball. Yao's fronting...you know, when a player denies the entry pass by standing between the passer and the intended receiver, only required 1 person. Please let me know if you need further explanation. TIA.

 

With Yao- in the second round, stealing homecourt advantage from the eventual champs Lakers with hopes of winning the series.

Without Yao- pretty good team, over 500 but not quite in the postseason.



No center in todays game can hold a candle to Moses or Dream. What is your point?

 

The "easily-neutralized-by-fronting" Yao Ming, managed to score more than 9000 points in his career, at rate of 19 pts per game. Funny how highly paid NBA coaches didn't figure out just to front him all the time.

 

Clutchfans:

Where a guy is so easiily shut down that he only manages 20/10 on .600 TS% over his playoff career.

 

Well, I highly doubt anybody worth being taken seriously would use that type of argument. Our supporting cast during the JVG days was downright tragic -- especially compared to what it is now. If some people choose to make this a black or white issue, so be it. We all know better.

And I can't speak for Zboy personally but I see nothing wrong with what he said. You're essentially arguing that injuries alone were the sole reason for Yao's decline, when in fact it was a combination of the mounting injuries and teams figuring out they didn't need to double-team him anymore. With all the energy the big fella would exert fighting for position, trying to re-post etc to counter the fronting it definitely took a toll on him (at the very least his conditioning).

Regardless, his argument was still he was a very good to at times excellent player. Sounds to me as if you guys are in total agreement (since as you stated: during his peak he was a superstar level player).

 

Lots of folks with short memories here. Yeah Yao dominated fronting defenses...

 

Yeah we all know that you're more of a coaching mastermind than Sloan or Jackson or various other coaches with playoff success. These scrubs allowed Yao to go off for 20/10 on .600 TS% for his playoff career.

zzz

 

So what's your point? Is that top 5 all time? Stick with the argument...I'm not saying Yao wasn't great...I'm saying he had glaring weaknesses that exposed him as a less than "one of the best of all time at one point" centers to play the game. That's ridiculously absurd to say.

 

It doesn't. This is legacy thread and as far as I'm concerned once you achieve that 'superstar status' label at any point in your career it is fair to refer to you as that.

It didn't appear he was questioning that label (nor am I). The issue is longevity and giving too much praise for a guy that only achieved that status for a few years. That's why I agree with describing Yao as a very good to at times excellent player (aka a superstar). It just goes without saying we all wish the peak lasted much longer than it really did. Mind you, that still doesn't change the fact that at one point he was still a superstar level player -- it's just calling it like it is.

Well, as far as this point goes I don't necessarily agree nor do I think it's fair. When I responded to his post, I agreed with the general sentiment. But make no mistake -- the "liability" argument isn't completely inaccurate either. He was a defensive liability in that series. That much is undeniable. But, again, it's not fair to act like that's why we lost since it never would have been a series in the first place if it weren't for his offensive contributions.

And as far as the 4-2 Utah series that's completely different, IMO. No Yao with a hobbled McGrady, Bobby Jackson gunning away and a bunch of rookies leading the way isn't on the same level as the previous team that at least had inside-outside balance the year before. Regardless of depth.

 

It really was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. We had JVG as coach in the 2006-2007series against Utah and we had RA the second time around in 2007-2008. Different players, different game plan, different coaching strategy and completely different circumstances altogether.

 

I mentioned in my post above that we changed coaches and the circumstances were completely different but I'll play anyways since you're so adamant that we added "better" players.

Brooks, Scola and Landry were all rookies. They showed signs that they could be good but they weren't ANYWHERE near what they are today.

Brooks was down right terrible (Luther Head-esque) in the series against Utah and he looked like, well, a Rookie. I almost felt bad for him but I knew it would be good for him in the long run because it was a baptisim by fire type of deal having to go against one of the top PG's in the league in Deron Williams.

Luis Scola started off the year slow and he was even dubbed "Scrubola" for the majority of the year. He performed pretty well in the series but you can't forget he was still a rookie as well.

Same thing goes for Landry. Landry was fearless and showed flashes of brilliance and single handedly won us 1 game with that key block but he looked like a rookie making the wrong switches and reads in crucial moments.

If you really think the addition of these 3 "rookies" made us that much better talent wise you're delusional. The Brooks, Scola and Landry we had against Utah were a far cry from the players they are today or the ones that played out of their minds in the series against the Lakers a year later. The only reason why they performed so well in the playoffs the next year was because of the experience theye gained the first time around.

 

Why are you using per as ur gauge to determine a players production? The year the rockets played utah, they had the best +/- of all the starting 5, but utah had more talent.

Yao was a good center and he could be dominant when all the planets were aligned, but that's the entire point. Great players transcend situations on the court. When utah single covered yao after game 2 and his fg% went down by a single coverage told me all I needed to see and know. I think his defense was underrated personally, but offensively, he had issues. The team will kill the shot clock trying to get him the ball because he had slow feet and no mobility. In a perfect world with magic johnson as the pg then yao probably could've been great, but great players make others great, they don't need a great player to make them great. The name I associate yao ming with is brad daughtery.

Daughtery was a high quality center in the era of great centers. He was very effecient, great passer, and was steady during the peak of dream,ewing,robinson and at the middle of of moses and pasrish. daughtery today would be a top center, maybe even the best with his balance and skill, but in the 80's he was considered good before the back problems.

 

funny
i'm sure if every team wanted front yao and limit him to 10 points a game, they'd be able to do it no sweat. he gets taken out of games that easily.
but i mean, teams care more about winning ball games, not limiting yao to 10 points a game. slowing down yao doesn't mean slowing down the rockets if tmac gets it going or if the rest of the team gets it going.
if beating the rockets means letting yao play selfish and score 25, then that's how it is. yao will get his 25
anyways, 19 pts per game and a whole bunch of missed games playoffs over his career hardly justify the his max contract. what a bad investment by the rockets basketball wise.., well, he did bring in a bunch of cash and die heart yao ming fans, such as yourself, from his country.

 

The best Yao is the last Yao (08-09), in my opinion. Improved leadership, reliability, clutchness, experience.... Numbers are relative and depend on many things.

Shaq changed the rules, he couldn't be fronted. Anyway, fronting defense translated into advantages for other players (that's domination). And if we didn't exploited it too well sometimes, the reason was our great starting PG named Aaron. Because the team played much better against that type of defense guided by Kyle Lowry. This is a team game and everything is related with your partners. Like Yao would have been much more dangerous playing next to a shooting PF like Sheed Wallace or Shad Lewis.

 

Somebody correct me if these stats are wrong, I'm calculating fast... :grin:

The 2006-2007 season before the injury :

26.8 ppg
9.7 rebs
2.3 blocks
86.5% FT

In the 7 games prior to him getting injured is where I think his absolute peak was. He had turned into an absolute monster in the paint. In one of those 7 games he only played 26 minutes due to foul trouble and still managed to put up these stats :

32.1 ppg
3.7 blocks
10.7 rebs
90.4% FT

Seriously, that 7 game stretch was one of the greatest periods of dominance I've ever witnessed outside of Hakeem, and the stretch ranks up there with the best offensive stretch I've seen out of any Rocket, including Hakeem. And unlike Shaq, you couldn't Hack-A-Yao - he'd destroy you from the line. And then.... the injury happened and the dream started turning into a nightmare. Bah.

 

This entire thread boils down to people who look at the glass half full and those who look at it half empty sprinkled in by how much they liked Yao even when he was healthy.