6,500 children? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/14/palestinian-children-rights-violated-israel This article speaks of 300. And again, it's the same DCI and the same guy that is quoted as the source. Always goes back to that one same guy (who is the president of that NGO).
That's the typical Mathloom post. He also said he doesn't want the old cartoonist actually killed, but he wants him to live in fear for the rest of his life over a cartoon. That "Mind you" sentence is the typical tactical sentence he throws in because he wants to leave a better impression with the audience here. Before that, he says that 1) he doesn't think Shalit is innocent and 2) that he has been imprisoned for crimes according to Hamas' laws. Hamas is a terrorist organization. How can it even have laws? And because a terrorist organization's "laws" have been violated, that makes the guy "not innocent" in Mathloom's mind? What more do you need to know? And a terrorist organization's "laws" have no legitimacy. But he implies they do. Also, there is international law. And Hamas is blatantly violating it with its treatment of Shalit. Why don't you ask Mathloom if he is anti-semitic or anti-Israel, or both, or none of the above? I'd say he is just indoctrinated with anti-Israel propaganda, like most people from the Arab world. That doesn't mean he wants them killed.
For a change, something encouraging from the Israel/Palestine "front": http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/world/middleeast/10mideast.html?_r=1&hp Virtual Bridge Allows Strangers in Mideast to Seem Less Strange RAMALLAH, West Bank — Moad Arqoub, a Palestinian graduate student, was bouncing around the Internet the other day and came across a site that surprised and attracted him. It was a Facebook page where Israelis and Palestinians and other Arabs were talking about everything at once: the prospects of peace, of course, but also soccer, photography and music. “I joined immediately because right now, without a peace process and with Israelis and Palestinians physically separated, it is really important for us to be interacting without barriers,” Mr. Arqoub said as he sat at an outdoor cafe in this Palestinian city. It has been nearly two years since Israeli and Palestinian leaders have negotiated their peoples’ future and, with the region in turmoil and prospects for peace dim, interaction between Israelis and Palestinians is increasingly limited to Israeli military checkpoints in the West Bank. But over the past month, the Facebook page has surprised those involved by the enthusiasm it has generated, suggesting that the Facebook-driven revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt may offer guidance for coexistence efforts as well. Called Facebook.com/yalaYL, the site, created by a former Israeli diplomat and unambiguous about its links to Israel, has had 91,000 views in its first month. Of its 22,500 active users, 60 percent are Arabs — mostly Palestinians, followed by Egyptians, Jordanians, Tunisians, Moroccans, Lebanese and Saudis. “All communication today is on the Internet — sex, war, business — why not peace?” asked Uri Savir, the president of the Peres Center for Peace and the founder of the new site. Mr. Savir was a chief peace negotiator for Israel in the 1990s as well as the director general of its Foreign Ministry and a member of Parliament. But he said he had never been more excited about a project. “Today we have no brave leaders on either side, so I am turning to a new generation, the Tahrir Square and Facebook generation,” Mr. Savir, 58, said as he sat in his Tel Aviv apartment running his finger over his iPad to scroll through the site. “We need to emulate Tunisia. My goal is to have 100,000 people working on Yala on joint projects that will lock our leaders into making peace.” The YL in the site’s name stands for young leaders (Yala means “let’s go” in Arabic), and Mr. Savir said he saw the page as a place where the next generation of regional innovators could meet. It helps that he has a few connections. The page has welcome messages from Shimon Peres, Israel’s president, and Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, as well as from Tony Blair, the former British prime minister who serves as an international envoy to the Palestinians, and the actress Sharon Stone. The site has already sponsored a photography contest — won by a Palestinian and an Israeli who will be flown to New York next month — and discussions are under way for sponsorship or involvement from the Italian government, the Barcelona soccer team and MTV. Mr. Peres and Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook’s founder, have chatted by phone about the effort. But most interesting so far have been the interactions online. At a time when Arabs generally shun contact with Israelis, those on the site speak openly about their desire to learn more about one another. “This is my first contact with Israelis,” said Lyth Sharif, an 18-year-old Palestinian student at Birzeit University in the West Bank who comes from Dura, a town near Hebron. “A friend of mine told me about it, and I think it’s cool. I joined a few days ago. It helps me understand the difference between Israel and the occupation.” Unlike members of his parents’ generation who worked in Israel, learned some Hebrew and watched Israeli television, Mr. Sharif has never set foot inside Israel or Jerusalem, a result of the security barrier and Israeli regulations. Mr. Arqoub, who is 29, knows Israel better. As a youth he sneaked into Israel and worked for a family he grew to love. Later he was imprisoned by the Israelis for two years without explanation, he said. But he rejected bitterness. Salah al-Ayan, a Palestinian Authority official and a friend of Mr. Savir’s who is helping with the site, said the lack of interaction today between Israelis and Palestinians about ordinary things was alarming. “Believe me, they don’t know each other at all,” he said in his Ramallah office. “Our goal is to start by talking about art and sports. Since Israelis and Palestinians don’t meet face to face anymore, this is a virtual place to meet. I was happy when I saw that some Palestinians had voted for Israeli photos in the contest.” The notes posted on the page are mostly in English, but also in Hebrew and Arabic. Some are playful, others poetic. Most of the talk seems to be between people in Ramallah and Tel Aviv. But Hamze Awawde, a 21-year-old student here in Ramallah said he got “friend” requests on Yala from Morocco and Egypt. He said: “I asked one Egyptian why he had contacted me and why he was taking part in this, and he said: ‘After the revolution, everything is permitted. I want to see what Israelis are like.’ ” Nimrod Ben Ze’ev, a 25-year-old student of Middle Eastern studies at Tel Aviv University, said much of the interaction on the site was still rather wooden — what he called “a peace dialogue mentality.” But he is optimistic. “I think the official letters from Peres and Blair help give the site a feeling that there is something behind it,” he said. “But what is great is that the discussions are unmediated — people aged 15 to 30 talking among ourselves. We don’t talk about a two-state solution or a one-state solution but about being a young person in Israel or Palestine. Our experiences are obviously very different, but we share a frustration about greater powers restricting us. That is very mutual.” In one exchange, an Israeli named Alon Kadmon asked what would happen if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and Mr. Abbas of the Palestinian Authority were locked in a sealed room for a week. Nadine Firas Yaghi, a Palestinian, replied that the two leaders would realize “that both have ears, eyes, hands and a mouth, a moment of epiphany that they share the same qualities, that before being Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, Muslim or Christian, they are human beings.” Another Palestinian response was sharper: “Don’t open the door.” A version of this article appeared in print on July 10, 2011, on page A12 --------------------- I think this is fantastic. This is what the world needs, not finger-pointing.
First of all, in response to your other point. It's not just the isolated NGO either that has noticed this... If you actually subscribed to this philosophy, you would realize why "finger-pointing" is necessary. Finger-pointing at Hamas and Israel, and then a realization their polices of hate are flawed, so that these things can happen. Well, there's already plenty of finger-pointing at Hamas. But what of Israel? Sure, leftist blogs and all that, but guess who keeps on getting foreign aid money? Look, if you believe truly in something I myself ardently believe in...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness, than you know why we must "finger-point." Fat chance trying to get Hamas to start this cycle, but Israel, as a state beholden to American aid, needs to be convinced that such vindictive gestures help nobody, and that for lasting peace, a hand needs to be offered outwards, not a finger as Israel did in bad-faith negotiations with the PA. Stop the arrest of children. Stop the arrest of political activists. Cease the excesses of martial law. Stop the violence and the hate. It goes to the crux of this matter. If you believe in something like this...outreach and love, then every policy the United States has pursued and every policy Israel has pursued have been failures. They use foreign aid as nothing more than flashy talk points and dish out hate and fear as readily as spiteful bulldogs. If there was a true extension of compassion...if there was a Marshall Plan fostered somewhat by self-interest in a stable world but inherently doing good for people...then the world would change. but here I am, dreaming again, and hoping one day you could all join me.
Stop pretending you care about international law, you are in support of one of the most flagrant violators of said laws.
FYI, I 100% support both Israelis and Palestinians rights to live in that land and to live in peace and with dignity without discrimination or political corruption. Keep acting like you didn't read it. I'm enjoying watching you make a fool of yourself after that abhorrent picture you posted. Disgusting, especially given you're German, and you have been subjected to similar behavior from people on this board, yet you have no sense of decency or shame in these matters, knowing full well that I have never sunk that low despite our disagreements. Sickening.
FYI I never claimed Hamas laws are legitimate. I specifically called them a terrorist organization and called their actions disgusting.
I'm laughing at the dialogue of the two clowns above. You do understand that the alleged number of 6,700 "children" being arrested over almost 10 years does not mean that they are actually in jail right now, as you insinuated in your other post, right? Nevermind...you don't actually understand. See below. Your finger always only goes in one direction - Israel. Free Mr. Shalit. Stop firing rockets. Stop teaching children hate. Stop describing suicide bombers as martyrs. Stop terrorist attacks.
The United States should have nothing to do with either Israel or Palestine. Pull all of our troops out of the Middle East (and Europe and Asia and everywhere else while we're at it).
Careful ATW, you start to lose credibility when you delve into personal attacks. Sigh...you understand basic English right? Where in the hell did I say 6,500 being held now? Being denied their future now, in the past etc. you think that putting them in jail and beating them is conductive to a good, stable, and happy future? Be my guest, spin your views that way. Or if you want, bring up 299 other hostages. Your call. Except when I say Hamas is the scum of the Earth and is to blame too? But yeah, my finger would seem to only go in one direction, since yours always goes in one predictable one---Islam, Islam, Islam. Sure. I'd be surprised if the terrorist group would acquiesce before the "lawful" republic, but hey, if we're being idealist, wouldn't it be cool if everyone's troubles just melted away. You continually seem to deflect Israel's failings away by blaming Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization bound by no international laws really, since it doesn't even represent an international state that is a signatory to any of these laws. Israel is a signatory to several international laws that it has violated, it is one of the richest nations on the planet, it can count on the stead-fest support and money of the most powerful nation on Earth. Kindly learn the difference between the two.
LSD has already responded to this lie you are trying to propagate. Still these disgusting childish moves, intentionally taking quotes out of context.
So, now you accuse him of lying? That's not very nice. And the least you could have done in your previous posts is include the full paragraph in your quote so the reader could decide for him/herself. Instead, you charge Mathloom with playing down the evils of Hamas despite his clear words to the contrary. [/quote]Before that, he says that 1) he doesn't think Shalit is innocent[/quote] I responded to this point already: Care to offer a rebuttal? Is that not true? Hamas is also the institution in charge of governing the Gaza Strip, so I'm sure they have quite a few laws. Mathloom never said Shalit was not innocent due to a violation of Hamas law. Again, you're evading Mathloom's argument, which actually questions the validity of legal justification for immoral actions, in favor of character assassination via innuendo. Agreed. I'm sure Mathloom would give his assent to this proposition as well. Please provide evidence for this claim. Irrelevant because Mathloom is not trying to justify Shalit's detainment. In fact, he called it "disgusting." Yeah, but the thing is...you kinda implied that he is antisemitic when you posted that picture. I don't know about you, but to me calling someone antisemitic is a pretty serious charge. If you don't really think Mathloom is antisemitic you should probably apologize for insinuating that he was with the picture you posted.
I don't see where Mathloom said what you say you are agreeing with. If he had said "From Hamas' perspective", all your advocacy for Mathloom might have a base. But he said: He certainly said that from his perspective, Shalit is not innocent. If he does not think he is innocent because he violated Hamas' laws, does that not mean he thinks Hamas' "laws" have legitimacy? I don't know if he is anti-semitic. His posting history neither rules that out nor confirms it. As I said, why don't you ask him if you want to know. He sure seems to hate Israel, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is anti-semitic. I never called him an anti-semite. I already explained the picture and apologized for a potential misunderstanding.
The first part of your conditional statement is unwarranted. Mathloom didn't state that violating Hamas law was the reason he does not consider Shalit to be innocent. Furthermore, Mathloom explicitly stated that he found Hamas' actions "disgusting." Unless you are saying that Mathloom is a liar, your claims and insinuations that he is a Hamas sympathizer remain unjustified. You did call him an antisemite by posting that picture, which associated Mathloom with someone holding a sign calling for the extermination of all Jews. Here is your "apology": In the same post you represent as an apology, you claim that your harmless intent was "obvious" (twice) and that Mathloom's sympathy for Hamas (another unwarranted insult) is more deserving of outrage. What is truly obvious is that you are unwilling to take responsibility for your words and actions.
