A very relevant question and one that the Israelis haven't answered yet. However, I think we should be clear about what this means. The Israelis have granted citizenship (or at least offered it) to the Arabs in Israel itself (excluding the West Bank). The "Jewish state" portion really applies to immigration. The children of Arabs citizens are still entitled to citizenship. This is no different than any other country applying stringent requirements for immigration. The difference is that Israel is very strict. (but you can find examples elsewhere, I'll use some Swiss cantons as an example) However, the problem in Israel is that citizenship does not equate to equality today in Israel. It is pretty clear that Arab-Israelis have consistently been excluded from employment, housing, and other areas of Israel. It is still legal in Israel for housing communities to reject Arab citizens from moving in solely based on their ethnicity There is plenty of job discrimination as well. Israel still has not tackled these problems and instead of encouraging integration of Arabs into Israeli society, they have chosen to exclude them and encourage Arab-Israelis to form parallel societies. I find this really stupid considering Israelis themselves are already a diverse population. Certainly we think of Israelis as European Jews but there is plenty of diversity and they have done a somewhat decent job of integrating.. (although there's plenty of room for improvement and the US is much better at integrating different groups) Nonetheless for a country that has had to reconcile different ethnic identities I find it silly that they have not found a way to integrate Arabs into the workforce and community. This is especially troubling considering in the 50s and 60s Arab-Israelis were far more integrated in the work force than they are today.
That is a good question. We, too,in the US conquered the native population, but we don't demand that it be a country which privileges one religion and or ethnicity (the Palestinians are the same people per DNA) ********** An encouraging analysis follows. We will see increasingly frantic attempts by the Israeli military to suppress non-violent Palestinians protestors. They will attack the demonstrators and continually try to turn the non-violent protests into violence. Sort of what they are trying to claim wrt to the Flotilla. *** Israeli Military: ‘No Way’ of Stopping Nonviolent Protests in West Bank High-Ranking Officials Warn of Egypt or Tunisia-Style Protests by Jason Ditz, June 29, 2011 Email This | Print This | Share This | Antiwar Forum They’ve happened in virtually every other nation across the Middle East. They’ve brought down the regimes in Egypt and Tunisia, and are on the verge of doing the same in Yemen. They’ve started a massive civil war in Libya, and have led to mass arrests and massacres in Bahrain and Syria. They are non-violent pro-democracy protests, and in a region used to dealing with violent protests with equally violent crackdowns, they are a terrifying prospect for those in power. That fear of masses of peaceful civilians expressing reasonable demands extends everywhere, including Israel. That is the message coming out of Israel’s military, where top officers are expressing concerns that a march as small as 4,000 civilians would be virtually unstoppable, so long as it remains peaceful, in the West Bank. They have learned the lesson of the other regimes, that “determined people cannot be stopped by tear gas and rubber bullets.” Indeed, another official warned that “if we are to face protests similar to those in Egypt or Tunisia, we will not be able to do a thing.” The fear is a realistic one, as Israeli officials say the Palestinian effort at UN recognition in September could spark such rallies. Pro-democracy protesters, seeking the right to elect their rulers instead of living under perpetual occupation, would not be out of place in the Arab Spring, and as with every other regime, Israel would have no good answer. http://news.antiwar.com/2011/06/29/...f-stopping-non-violent-protests-in-west-bank/
Fascinating commentary on the recent Flotilla hooplah in today's Haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...come-a-society-of-force-and-violence-1.370407
Take your time, work is work. I do have to say, it wouldn't surprise me if 0 kidnapped soldiers were returned. But that's now what we're talking about. We're not talking about things at the micro level, we're not talking about the people following orders (both the Hamas kidnappers and Shalit). We're talking about the more macro level. In this conflict, Israeli and Palestinian policymakers are jointly responsible for Palestine not being a state. So I don't buy the terminology of kidnapping vs imprisonment in this conflict. From my perspective, Shalit is not an innocently kidnapped person. He is a soldier, and he has been imprisoned for crimes according to Hamas' laws. Mind you, this doesn't make the whole thing less disgusting to me. Just like Palestinian prisoners are not kidnapped, they are prisoners because they are not in compliance with Israeli law. Any prisoner that Hamas takes is a kidnapped person because policies have made them an entity that is not a state, does not have a legitimate government, does not have a legitimate security apparatus, and does not have prisons. If Israel extended settlement freeze, and Palestine was a state that included Gaza/Hamas, would we then be saying that he was kidnapped or that he is under arrest but since there are no prisons and the IDF has a history of violently (and unsuccessfully) extracting prisoners from the other side, Hamas has to hide this guy. My initial reaction is that there are 100's of Palestinians being held without charge in Israel. Why don't we know all their names? Are we supposed to believe that these prisoners are held legitimately just because Israel is allowed to be a legitimate state/government while Hamas/Gaza has not been allowed that? If unconventional and unethical war tactics can not precede statehood, then would Israel be a state today? Israel had its own groups, its own Hamas, its own Fatah, when it needed them to establish a state. This is why Israel is all too familiar with what will happen if maniacs like Hamas get into government. They look at themselves and see what a monster this creates. We both know that a huge number of Israeli politicians have history with terrorist organizations of the past who have engaged in assassinations, bombings, etc.
.. and then you cry like a little girl when people call you a Nazi? Calling someone a Nazi or a terrorist or a "juice"-hater is a serious thing. You constantly do this kind of thing and intentionally don't use any words with the pictures in these specific posts. You even had a b****-fit about me calling you a cultural neo-nazi. You went as far as to say that it's pretty much the same as calling you a Nazi. Though I didn't agree with you, I've actually refrained from doing it again. I'm disinterested in your response since we all know beforehand it will be a picture or an unrelated personal attack. Yes I have made mistakes on this board, and yes I hold views that are controversial to people on this board, and that doesn't change what I've said here about you. I won't bother responding to you in this thread again. But I thought to myself it's completely unethical of me to not bump this thread and have more people see your post. Good day sir.
You have complained multiple times about people calling you a Nazi and you casually throw this one out. Come on man, thats pretty ridiculous.
I was looking for a reason to post that picture, which I found on a Facebook page that accumulates funny pictures (like LOLcats, etc.). Obviously, I neither think that Mathloom wants to kill all juice nor all jews. The post was obviously in jest. If that did not become clear, I apologize. That said, I find Mathloom's stance that the kidnapped Israeli soldier is someone "who has been imprisoned for crimes under Hamas' laws" a disturbing attitude. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas - I also find it disturbing that you would get more worked up about a ridiculous picture than about the fact that Mathloom plays down Hamas' role as a terrorist organization and makes it seem like they are a lawful and respectable entity.
So, just because Israel is nominally a "country", it makes it alright for it to have a disproportionate amount of Palestinians imprisoned and to violate international law? The above is in stark violation of international law. mhmm international law you say? phooey.
What were they arrested for? I am not saying that Israel is without fault at all, but what is "disproportionate"...did they do something or not?
Some are political activists, for the children, your guess is as good as mine (some are for throwing stones), and regardless of what they were imprisoned for, their conditions of imprisonment and where they are imprisoned violate international law.
Don't think Israel hasn't thought about it. This is the same country that beat children with truncheons or imprisoned them, and deliberately kept the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse. Also the same country that takes American military aid with an open hand, then sells some of that technology to China. (it's hilarious how the same people who so avidly support Israel cannot seem to figure out that Israel is betraying America on so many levels)
In America, you do something called putting juvenile offenders in juvenile, or of not persecuting juveniles as adults. Despite America's preeminent status as the prison state of the world (the highest incarceration rate), it appears Israel does not share your views when it comes to this little thing we call judicial dignity. See, children between the ages of 12 and 18 being arrested and tried as adults (up to 6700 of them) rankles me. But, I'm sure that as advocates of liberty and freedom, it rankles you as well. funny how no one comments on the political prisoners, or the illegal conditions of imprisonment. (damn it, some research I did confirms the United States actually executes some juvenile offenders and sentences them to life in prison. I guess people need to clean up at home too...this is in stark violation of international laws and norms.)
It rankles you...regardless of what they have done? What if all of the (supposedly) 6700 of them assaulted people with deadly weapons? It still rankles you then? I was going to mention this, glad you found it out yourself. I, in fact, think that e.g. Germany is much too lenient on juvenile offenders. Below the age of 14, NOTHING can be done in terms of criminal sanctions, and there are plenty of 13 year olds who are committing crimes already. And between 14 and 18, most of these kids get off lightly, even if they have committed serious crimes.
Juvenile executions were banned by the Supreme Court in 2005 so thankfully the US stopped doing that. Life in prison is still theoretically possible if you committed murder in a state that allows a juvenile to be tried as an adult.
Hey, Mr. gwayneco, how do you feel about Israel selling military technology to China? Isn't it hilarious how your military aid ends up indirectly going to your worst enemy? I find it hilarious. Do you? Or is that a feature, not a bug?
