Yet you have absolutely no problem equating me and several other posters with terrorists based upon nothing but our stance against your bigoted, ignorant statements. Ironic, huh? Get a grip on reality you whiny crybaby.
Multiple times you have equated me and other posters with Islamists like ObL and terrorists in general. And then you play the stupid card acting like you didn't. Based simply on posting history, you are more of a threat to society than anyone else who posts in the D&D.
Israel is more and more often banning journalists and scholars it doesn't like from their shores. I think Chomsky and Finkelstein have been banned off and on. They have banned US politicians they don't like from the West Bank at times iirc.
The answer is beginning to be felt. Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions are the non-volent way to break Israel apartheid. Buy the book and support the non-vioelent movement. http://www.haymarketbooks.org/pb/Boycott-Divestment-Sanctions ********** Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions The Global Struggle for Palestinian Rights Palestine By Omar Barghouti International boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) efforts helped topple South Africa’s brutal apartheid regime. In this urgent book, Omar Barghouti makes the case for a rights-based BDS campaign to stop Israel’s rapacious occupation, colonization, and apartheid against the Palestinian people. This considered, convincing collection contributes to the growing debate on Israel’s violations of international law and points the way forward to a united global civil society movement for freedom, justice, self-determination, and equality for all. About the author OMAR BARGHOUTI is an independent Palestinian commentator and human rights activist. He is a founding member of the Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (PACBI) and the Palestinian Civil Society Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign against Israel. He holds a bachelor’s and master’s degrees in electrical engineering from Columbia University, NY, and a master's degree in philosophy (ethics) from Tel Aviv University. Video Watch Omar Barghouti on Democracy Now! as he speaks out against Israel's renewed assault on Gaza Reviews “No one has done more to build the intellectual, legal, and moral case for BDS than Omar Barghouti. 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And the boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign against Israeli cruelty and injustice is gaining in significance and scope. Like the anti-apartheid movement against racist South Africa, BDS is helping to make a tremendous difference in what has been a most difficult struggle for human rights and the right of a colonized and dispossessed people to national self-determination. This inspiring book is a weapon in a noble struggle in which all right-thinking people can play a part.” —Ronne Kasrils, author, activist, and former South African government minister “I commend this excellent book by Omar Barghouti.…It challenges the international community to support the BDS campaign until the entire Palestinian people can exercise their inalienable rights to freedom and self-determination and until Israel fully complies with its obligations under international law. BDS is a call to refuse to be silent in the face of military occupation of the Palestinian people by the Israeli regime, apartheid, and colonialism. BDS is a nonviolent way in which each of us and our governments can follow our conscience and rightful moral and legal responsibility and act now to save Palestinian lives by demanding that the Israeli apartheid regime give justice and equality to all.”—Mairead Maguire, 1976 Nobel Peace Laureate “When powerful governments will not act, ordinary people must take the lead…. Essential reading for all who care about justice and the plight of an oppressed people.” —Ken Loach, filmmaker “This is a book about the political actions necessary to hinder and finally to stop the Israeli state machine that is operating every day to eliminate the Palestinian people. It is like an engineer’s report, not a sermon. Read it, decide, and then act.” —John Berger, author
A lie. This time it will be harder for Israel to confiscate all the media, videos and photos and photoshop the narrative. This is why they are being so threatening to accompanying journalists.
mondoweiss.net a good site run by a jewish guy that will be monitoring the journey of the "Audacity of Hope" and the other flotilla vessels. It also provides good info on the conflict.
Complete ignorance is amusing. The ignorance about how the weapons were VERY CLEARLY weapons that HAPPENED to be on the ships. Kitchen knives, wooden boards? Seriously, this is what they were smuggling that's so dangerous? Freaking sling shots? Seriously. My favorite is about how this is supposedly made to illegitimately demonize Israel. It's completely legitimate. Israel should be able to handle these things, and if we're at the point where Americans and Israelis are devoted to this mission and are present on the flotillas, you have to wonder if there's something wrong. Surely, Israelis don't want to demonize Israel illegitimately. Though Netenyahu has requested a revision, this crude threat to journalists is also dissapointing. How many times have the people on this board said that Israel is the pinnacle of democracy and freedom in the Middle East? If that's true, as I've said before, it's just the best looking turd in a pile of *****. They denied Noam Chomsky entry. They denied Finklestein entry. Why? Because they disagree. The difference between Iran and Israel is quickly dissapearing, and that's largely due to the pressure Israel has placed on itself and the way in which it has handled its affairs. There's a genuine opportunity for Israel to show some good will without risking anything. Everyone and their mother knows no weapons will be smuggled through these vessels. But Israel has made its position clear: a show of strength is more important than reconciliation, and they expect us to be outraged that someone is breaking their law in a territory which they refuse to annex or set free, and insist on keeping on the brink of starvation > which, incidentally, is a terriffic situation for Hamas to use if it's recruiting people. "We don't have a country. We can't have a country. We don't have any reasonable sovereignty. We are being kept on the brink of starvation, and made to play under the rules of the regime that's put us in thi situation. If their interest was security, they would let these 50, 60, 70 year olds break the blockade and deliver aid. If Israel is insecure with this situation, then the reality is that their insecurity cannot be rationally accomodated." As I said, I'm glad. I'm glad this will garner some more attention, and I sincerely hope no one gets hurt. Not the IDF soldiers, not the passengers, nobody. I wish there were a single person responsible for the entire mess/stupidity on both sides, so we could shoot that person in the head and be done with it. Unfortunately, that's not the case, and steps have to be taken by Israelis, Americans, Palestinians, etc at the grass roots level to sort this out. If shining a light on something makes it look bad, then so be it. That's not demonizing. That's already demonized, but now made public. If there was nothing to be ashamed of, Israel wouldn't be threatning countries, people, organizations, begging, pleading for this not to happen and threatning people to avoid them from reporting any incidents. If there's nothing to hide, then there will be no problem. The passengers on board this ship have a nice plan in place, a set of rules, totally non-violent, and I hope this exercise goes smoothly. My expectation is that they're stopped, then they move over (or get moved over) to Egypt where the goods will be inspected, and they will be allowed to unload on the Egyptian side with no casualties at all for anyone. That would be nice.
See, it's fun to twist words. The reality is that the average Israeli and the average Palestinian would not have any animosity towards each other if they weren't led by greedy criminals. The average Israeli, who is in danger and does not seek trouble, wants this to stop. The average Palestinian, who isn't brainwashed and starving, wants this to stop. But the leaders/politicians don't want this to stop because there is no more money for them once this stops. No more power for them. It's important in this conflict that you don't allow morons to drag discussion into a level of "why did he shoot them on the ship? why did he strap a bomb to himself? etc.." The *****ed up ***** that goes on day-to-day is a product of the leadership. If settlers were told to screw off, they'd screw off. If Palestinians were told to go home, they would go home. If IDF soldiers and Hamas agents were told not to treat the enemy like animals, they would do it. These are orders from people who have been instilled with fear - for Israelis, it's the fear of insecurity, and for Palestinians, it's the fear of death/starvation/extinction. The leaders are creating this fear in order to have obedient subjects. So make sure that when you're discussing this, you don't get into the product of the problem. The product is clear and understood - Hamas engages in terrorism, Palestinians believe in hateful things about the other side, the IDF responds irrationally to conflict, and Israelis believe in hateful things about the other side. These are all products of the problem. Just like all the facebook pages, the discrimination, the television programming, etc etc. The real problem is at the top of both regimes. That's where we need to focus. No one is going to sit here and say that the leadership of Israel/Palestine has no problems. That's where we can agree, and it's not irrational to expect that people on both sides of this conflict can have a common goal - to rid themselves of hateful, bigoted, backwards people from their governments. That's a worthwhile goal, and one that's easily achievable. It will happen the moment you believe that Palestinians don't want to kill Israelis as soon as they're born, and Israelis aren't born wanting to take over the every country in the Middle East. The only other thing is to stop believing you are better or different than any of the peopel in these populations. You would act the same as a crazy Palestinian if you were born into a crazy Palestinian family, and you would act the same as a crazy Israeli if you were born in a crazy Israeli family. Neither is better than the other, and none of us are better than them. This is just a cluster***** of cirmustances artificially generated by the leadership. If we can all agree and focus on improving the leadership and removing the parasites, then there's nothing to argue about.
Don't you just love the tone in this article.. What does that even mean?? I'm glad Israel brought this up. I've heard these guys have been made to stay back. I look forward to seeing Israel's evidence that Mr Hannoun has ties and that passengers want to engage in violent acts. These kinds of accusations shouldn't go untested. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ting-boats-that-breach-gaza-blockade-1.370007 It's all those crazy Palestinians fault. Breaking the law with their allegedly non-violent actions, and for what? For hatred. Animals I tell you.
It's not fair to lump all Palestinians in with Hamas/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad/etc. Just as it's not fair to lump all Israeli's/Jews in with the settlers & right winged folk. Your statement about there never being a state of Palestine really has no purpose in bringing peace. The fact of the matter is that there are millions of people who have been pissed on by everybody. Everybody is guilty as to where the Palestinians are today: Jordan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan Syria: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/08/world/la-fg-syria-palestinians-20110608 Egypt: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/me_hamas0681_06_05.asp Arafat: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,86310,00.html I'm with the US Administration policy... 2 State Solution with 1967 Borders & strategic land swap negotiations. With that said, I don't think it can happen with Hamas in power.
[/QUOTE] I don't think the two state solution is just. However, if the Palestinians want to settle for this so be it. The equities are on the side of the original occupants before the Euro colonialists arrived. Well I don't think that most Israelis are actually for the two state solution either. 75 pus percent only want to give back the left over land after they have taken the best part for settlements, most of the water rights and they still insist on controlling all air space, water and international boundaries. Day after day they keep enlarging the settlements. This is not realistic or seriously wanting a two state solution. Interestingly, eventually most Israelis within the pre 1967 borders won't be for any sort of two state solution.. Demographically the majority of births in pre 1967 borders are to the Orthodox and the discriminated Arab citizens. Neither group is for the two state solution. Jews who want the two state solution should be energetically supporting the Flotilla, international sanctions or any means to bring the Israelis to their senses. Trying to keep supporting current Israeli policies as you do will hasten the closing of the two state window, assuming it isn't closed yet.
You are consistent in talking out of your rear end. Would you like to add links to your statistics? Do you honestly believe that all Orthodox jews don't want a 2 state solution as a whole? Your "just" situation is an impossibility. Israel will either remain a Jewish state or be wiped off the face of the earth. Hamas prefers the latter. Breaking the blockade only gives Hamas another channel for explosives used in Qassam rockets. If you want a quicker end to the blockade, fight for the end of the rocket barrage rather than pissing and moaning to the UN about Israeli defense tactics. Israel's enemy will stop at nothing to fire rockets at schools and populated neighborhoods to keep border towns under a constant threat and prevent jews from moving to them. Why? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas Do you enjoy using the same talking points year after year?
I disagree with a lot of what you write. First and foremost, there hasnt really been very good polling (that I've seen) on Israeli public opinion about the two state solution. Almost everyone (except for some settler lunatics) believe that a two state solution is the right way to go. The problem is that there havent been any polls that give actual concrete options. No polls for example outline options that remove all settlements or remove some settlements. These types of nuances have never been reflected in polls so its really impossible to say anything based on what data exists. Second, your statements about people in the pre 1967 borders just aren't true. The secular community is probably the most supportive of a two state solution. They have very little interest or attachment to the West Bank or Gaza. On top of that there is a growing disconnect between the secular Israelis and the religious establishment. Additionally you're making a false statement about the orthodox community. You are correct that they are the largest growing segment (in terms of births) of the Israeli Jewish community. However, orthodox Jews are mostly in the pre-67 borders. Additionally many settlers aren't even orthodox jews. Many settlements consist of immigrants from the Soviet Union who are just fanatical but aren't what you would call "orthodox." Furthermore there is a huge gulf in terms of what the Orthodox community thinks of the West Bank. On one hand you have settlers (and their backers) that actively support Israel's right to build settlements throughout the West Bank. That group consists of fanatics who just want it and the religious that believe that the Bible refers to the entirety of Judea and Samaria when it refers to Jews coming back to their homeland. On the other hand, you have orthodox Jews who argue that the Jewish homeland was supposed to be given to it by the Messiah and seeing as how Israel was not formed that way, this isn't the biblical prophecy of the return of the Jews. This gulf is actually reflected in the political makeup of Israeli parties. You have religious parties that dont take a concrete stance on settlements. That's why Labor and Kadima were able to form coalitions with religious parties despite their more open stance on negotiations with the Palestinians. Those parties more or less took a softer line on the West Bank in exchange for things like extra subsidies for the orthodox. You also have religious parties that wont bend on the issue and consequently will only form coalitions with Likud. (if anyone at all) Lastly, the flotilla wont matter in terms of a two state solution. it's only purpose is to challenge the blockade of Gaza and little else. A two state solution will only come when Likud is booted from power and when an Israeli leader is bold enough to deal with the political fallout of ordering settlers out of the West Bank. Sharon got blasted when he dismantled the Gaza settlements and that was only a fraction of what exists in the West Bank. It will take a truly courageous leader on the Israeli side to make something happen as well as a fair partner on the Palestinian side. But until then, nothing will change.
Is it surprising to you that most Orthodox Jews don't want a 2-state solution? Let's take this poll: We're looking at an all-time high of 60% among the entire population, and this is for Israelis not just Jews. You really think 70% of Orthodox Jews is an unusual number? Seriously, enough drama. No one can wipe Israel off the face of the earth. At this point in time, the President of the US couldn't achieve it if he wanted to, and Hamas sure as hell couldn't achieve if they wanted to. Israel can be Jewish, secular, Muslim, whatever the hell the government of Israel wants it to be. Hamas is incapable of wiping anything off the face of the earth.
Going to be a busy day at work today, so I don't have time to respond to your post. I am glad that you brought up Gilad Shalit. Please name one Israeli soldier that has been kidnapped and returned alive. We both know very well that Hamas, etc. aren't going to fight a conventional war. In guerilla warfare (or any warfare for that matter) intel is king. Jailing/questioning of suspected terrorists who are wrongly captured is an unfortunate consequence. Have a good one.
The view that you're propounding is tantamount to conventional psychological delegitimization- the ability to subject people to extraordinary circumstances and then conceive collective psychologies that provide justification for those circumstances being instituted. Jim Crow, for example, was heavily justified in its time by way of the violence 'inherent' in Black people. Others, such as Edgar Gardner Murphy, suggested that Jim Crow was mutually beneficial, for integration would mean constantly subjecting Black people to "adverse feeling and opinion" as well as bring about "a morbid race consciousness." If you look at the history of the Native Americans and European colonization, you find many of the same constructs in place. Native Americans were consistently portrayed as uncouth, uncivilized, ungodly, and violent. The Palestinian struggle is not all that different. The Palestinian response to occupation has been variegated; when they attempt civil disobedience or protests, it get's termed "unnecessary provocation." When unarmed protesters are killed, the justifications are endless. When they respond violently, it gets aggregated as a representation of their entire populace. As for IDF soldiers that have been kidnapped, do you have a total number of IDF soldiers that have been kidnapped by Hamas? I havent been able to find any statistics on this. One website I saw said three soldiers. I'm not denying that Hamas and Palestinians have been violent in the past. Nor am I denying that on many occasions, that violence has been brutal, and 100% condemnable, no question. But how does further settlement expansion serve to resolve that? Why doesnt Israel vote in the UN to recognize Palestine as an autonomous, independent state? Why dont they pull out and return to the 1967 boundaries? (Netanyahu has already explicitly said that 1967 isnt going to happen....) Shortly after the 1967 war, 57 renowned figures in Israel published a declaration in the Israeli Media saying the following: The same day, a small group of 12 Israeli intellectuals published their own declaration: The foresight of these 12 individuals could not have been more spot on. You've mentioned previously that your problem is when posters attempt to delegitimize Israel as a Jewish State. The question I'd ask you is why you attempt to defend it as a Jewish State? The total Israeli population is ~7.5 million, close to 2 million of that is Palestinian. The Palestinian territories have an additional 4 million or so people. The minority, non-Jewish population in Israel is not a trivial percentage of their population. Why arent we pushing Israel to adopt a secular model akin to the US?
I will try to get to your questions later on in the day. I appreciate your tone and willingness to discuss this in a civil manner.
