This superstar that they already had on the roster, how did they get him? And that other superstar that they got, the tall one, how did they get him? If your argument is the only way to get guys like Ray Allen is to tank, then I'll pass. We already got ourselves a lesser version and we got him for a former second round pick. My concern is how do we get the Paul Pierces and Kevin Garnetts of the world. Tanking is obviously one way to do it. But, did Boston? You're right, it seems we are going the Boston route.
They were 24-58 the year before the big 3 trade, so yes they did. But back to the original topic However, I'm one of those who believe you build championships moreso through the trade or offseason signings, than through the draft. The only way a draft really helps you if you can really draft "that guy." And next year's draft may potentially have a few surefire "franchise players." This year doesn't, as it's basically a unanimous opinion that it is one of the weakest drafts ever. So I'm fine with Morey collecting assets, but he has to eventually convert them into "that guy." But I would be fine with us completely tanking (ala Spurs mode) to get a top 3 pick for next year.
You don't seem to be following. The 24-58 record got them Ray Allen. The Rockets don't need a 24-58 record to get Ray Allen. We already have a poor mans version on the team. And we got him for a second rounder. How did they get Paul Pierce? How did they get KG? Those are the type of players Houston desperately need.
And they were 36-46 in 1998, which allowed them to draft Pierce. However, that was actually a pretty impressive record since the year before that they were 15-67. They got Paul Pierce the old fashioned way. They sucked then got lucky in the draft. They got Kevin Garnett because they had Paul Pierce and because a gamble on a kid straight out of high school taken with the 15th picked panned out okay.
Same pattern holds when you check the non-winning conference finalists like Philly and NJ who featured Iverson and Van Horn. This holds for Boston who drafted Pierce 10 and acquired Allen in a trade including the 5 pick. The Garnet deal is lone of the few exceptions to the rule. Outside of free agency, acquiring a superstar level player generally requires a top pick for either drafting that player, including in a trade for that player, or trading a hot prospect drafted with that pick. Few exceptions to the rule (Lakers and Jazz). No shortcuts. Gotta pay dues with a losing record, get some superstar to force a trade this way, or hope a superstar falls to 10+ in the draft.
Do you call that tanking? They selected Pierce with the 10th pick. We had deals in place to move up to 8-10 range this year, and pulled them off the table when we felt our targets might slide.
Paul Pierce was drafted after they had a bad season. KG was traded for Al Jefferson and other assets they had from 'tanking'/being bad Rondo was drafted because they were bad too.
1. Yes. 2. Was it at least tanking when they only won 15 games the year before to get the players that helped them double their win total the year they still sucked enough to get a top 10 pick and draft Paul Pierce?
That was a rhetorical question. I know exactly how they got them. Paul Pierce they drafted with the 10th pick. KG they trade for a deal centered around Al Jefferson, a 15th pick. How to hell was Rondo drafted because they were bad, when he was the 21th pick? It seems, none of the core elements that made Boston a contender was due to tanking, except Ray Allen. Which, back to what I was saying, we already have a lesser version of, without tanking.
Paul Pierce was a lottery pick at #10. Poor man's version isn't Ray Allen. You may not think highly of him, but that's a guy that truly deserves an entire defense's attention 24 seconds, and is one of the reasons Boston is so versatile on offense. But the only stance that makes sense in terms of what Morey is doing is in regard to how the Celtics got KG. Boston traded for KG b/c they had Al Jefferson, an up-and-coming star that some teams believed at the time could potentially be a franchise player. He wasn't a lottery pick, but Boston came off a 36-46 season to get him (so they were pretty bad). Boston also compiled a bajillion young guys to do this--which is similar to how Morey is trying to do things I guess. But the thing is, none of the guys he has drafted has that potential where other teams will think he can lead a team. I know you're WAY high on Morris, but I don't see it. If one of these guys can develop into a potential star player, then maybe MOrey will be able to swing for a KG-type player. That hasn't happened. And if the more likely scenario (none of them develop into an all-star type player, then we're stuck in mediocrity for a long time. Look, we're not going anywhere anyways next year. That's a fact. Why not just tank for ONE freakin' year b/c next year's draft is ridiculously strong with many potential all-star players (and maybe we can use them to swap for a real superstar). Dwight Howard/Paul/Dwill aren't free agents until next year. Having a high lottery pick next year maybe really favorable.
Rondo was pick 21. Jefferson was drafted 15. Actually, the Garnett trade is what I consider an exception to the rule that team's want real prospects when they have to cough up a star. Recent sign and trade deals offer hope, but I consider those part of free agency.
It's their tanking that enabled them to get Ray Allen and KG. And you have a much greater chance of drafting a Pierce with the 10th pick than the 14-16th pick. And I'm going to copy and paste this for you... Spurs - drafted Duncan. 4 Chips. Mavs - drafted Nowitzki. 2 finals, 1 chip. Miami - drafted Wade. 2 finals, 1 chip. Celtics - drafted Pierce. 2 finals, 1 chip. OKC - drafted Durant. Conference finals. Orlando - drafted Howard. Made finals. Chicago - drafted Rose. Made conference finals. Minny - drafted Garnett. Made conference finals. Hornets - drafted CP3. Made conference finals. Utah - drafted DWill. Made conference finals. Lakers - Yankees of the NBA. FAs like Shaq, trades like Pau Gasol, Kobe at pick no. 13 just happen for them for some reason. Oh and... Houston Rockets - drafted Hakeem. 2 chips. and I'm gonna add: Pistons - Isiah Thomas (2 or 3? chips) Chicago - MJ (6 chips) Celtics - Bird Lakers - Magic seriously, I've pretty much listed the NBA champs of the last 30 years, and all of them had a superstar which they acquired through the draft.
Why? So that you can have the 10th pick in the draft instead of the 14? When we could have simply traded the 14 and 23 for 10 anyways? Sure, I would call that tanking. And it got them Chauncey Billups who they traded for scraps. How did that contribute to their championship? And they sucked enough to get the 10th pick. Like I said, we had a chance to get the 10th pick, without sucking. We pulled it off the table and got our guy anyways.
You know what else we should mention? That aside from the fact KG wouldn't have went to the Celtics if Paul Pierce wasn't there and Paul Pierce wouldn't have been there if they didn't suck for a few years. And aside from the fact that they also wouldn't have been able to trade for them had they not collected a desirable package of assets from sucking again in the latter stages of Pierce's career. They also wouldn't have been able to get Garnett if he wasn't in the latter stage of his career himself. Is that what we're hoping for to save us? An aging vet who can give us a very brief window in which we MIGHT win A championship? Because personally, I'm hoping for a franchise player that is with us long enough that we can win many championships. Why in the hell would you wish for Celtics era KG when you could wish for Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon or Tim Duncan?
exactly. drafting a superstar > trading for a superstar. You have a much longer window to contend with them and build around them, barring injury.
Next year's draft potentially can offer us this. So tank away. Pull a Spurs and have a decade of success! It's hard to say. I advocate tanking if the draft offers potential franchise players. I wouldn't tank this past year, b/c this draft sucks. Hell, even if we get a great pick next year, if we can swing that + our young assets for a Dwight Howard, I would do it. You always try to get the sure thing. Trading for a superstar guarantees instant success (maybe not win it all, but you'll be in position).
Because finding a player they COULD build a franchise around involved drafting low for several years. Finally one worked out. And all of this is essentially irrelevant anyway, since what Morey claims he is attempting to do (I have my doubts) is rebuild without EVER dipping below .500, which is clearly something the Celtics did not do. They dipped below .500 A WHOLE LOT many times in the process of getting to that championship.
Boston built their championship with: A 10th pick A 15th pick A 21st pick A 5th pick Of those 4, the only one we have very little shot at without tanking is the 5th pick. But Kevin Martin isn't even that far off from an aging Ray Allen. We can acquire, or simply have ourselves, all the rest. Everything else the Celtics got from years of sucking contributed ZERO to their championship.
I've got a hunch that despite claims to the contrary, the front office wouldn't mind letting the team tank for jus one year. New coach, new system, new players... Chances are we will have a real rough first year anyhow. They're gonna try to play the young guys a bunch to see what they can do and/or showcase for trades as well. Plus, it's a pretty bad year to lose your pick to the Nets.
