Where does Kidd rank among the all-time PGs?

and if you don't think closing ability is that important to ranking a player

see 2011 NBA Finals

 

1) Magic
2) Oscar
3) Cousy
4) Stockton
4a) Thomas
6) Kidd
7) Frazier
8) Nash
9) Payton

 

I'm not going to get too much into the debate of Thomas vs Kidd/Nash/Payton. Those are all very close and if you take Thomas that's pretty much a matter of preference. It will be tough to convince me that Detroit did not have the best supporting players of any of those teams (Thurl Bailey? Mark Eaton? Really? Dumars was all-NBA.) but the Utah finals teams had probably the closest talent level. The most glaring comparison is the NJ Kidd finals team. Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson are two of the worst "good" players I have ever seen. I swear Kidd could have gotten the same production out of Adrian Caldwell and Derrick Chievous.

Anyway, these are some of the numbers I was referring to:
Player PER TS% eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg
Isiah Thomas 18.1 0.516 0.465 37.4 2.5 0.4 16.8 25.3 106 107
John Stockton 21.8 0.608 0.546 50.2 3.5 0.5 20.8 18.9 121 104

Sure, these are efficiency stats, but since Isiah and Stockton both played a lot I don't think it matters. As you can see, Stockton is tremendously ahead in shooting %, assists, and steals. His shooting numbers are comparable to Nash, but he also has one of the most insane stl% rates of all time. His ORtg is one of the highest of all time, and is a massive +17 over his DRtg. Scroll through bbreference and you'll see what I mean.

ORtg and Drtg aren't perfect, and I think these are underrating Isiah. But Stockton's efficiency stats are just about the best of any player in history. And I'm saying this despite the fact that I despise him.

 

stockton's efficiency stats are better than isiah's but isiah took over games and there is no stat for that unfortunately, other than he won two rings. his teams may have been better than utah's, but he didn't have a malone. he didn't have another hofer on that team, well not a legit one. i mean they put dumars in there, but really.

 

True, Malone was better than Dumars, but which supporting cast would you prefer?

Malone, Hornacek, Bryon Russell, Greg Ostertag, Howard Eisley, Shandon Anderson (1 HoF, a 1-time allstar, 1 solid role player, and the rest scrubs)
Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Mahorn, Vinnie Johnson, Salley, James Edwards (4 multiple-all stars, and 4 above average role players)

Yes, Isiah took over games. He gets credit for that. But he was not the only player on his team with a killer instinct. Dumars and the Microwave were nasty too. I'd argue that Stockton did take over games, although he didn't always do it with scoring. The guy was involved in practically every play on defense and offense.

 

yes, 89, he avg 17-5 the entire playoffs, and isiah avg 18-8, dumars probably had to guard magic

 

This is how I remember Isiah's teams playing on offense. Sometime Isiah would drive, a lot of the time they would post Aguirre or James Edwards, another fraction of the time they would iso Vinnie Johnson, and another big fraction of the time they would have Dumars or VJ coming off a screen for a J or drive. On many of these plays Dumars/Laimbeer/Isiah would be in position for a kickout jumper. If the offense broke down, Isiah would be the failsafe to make an often difficult 1v1 play. In other words, they were a balanced halfcourt offense with Isiah occasionally making some spectacular plays because of his ability to beat his man off-the-dribble.

But the thing is, Isiah's shooting % reflects his role. Despite his greatness in 1v1 and in the open court, he really did miss a lot of shots. That's why Detroit built a halfcourt offense around so many other players taking the shot. If Isiah were to be the 1st option more often, their offense would have had a tougher time, since, despite his excellence, a dribble-drive on his part is not nearly as efficient as an iso by other superstars (e.g. a postup by Hakeem, Jordan, or Magic).

Now compare to Stockton. Almost all Jazz possessions were either: a Stockton/Malone PnR, a Malone postup (with Stockton lined up for a J), a screen for Hornacek (often with Stockton delivering the ball), or a drive by Stockton. Stockton was not as a good a 1v1 player as Isiah, but he was heavily involved in every play. I don't see how you can say Isiah was more important to his team's offense than Stockton. Sure, he had more pizazz, but in the end it's about how well the offense runs.

 

in the end its how successful your team was. in the end, when the offense broke down, isiah could get you a shot. and they ran a pretty good offense in Detroit, they may have had more offensive players. but the ball was well distributed and they had no problem finding the hot hand every night, and that has a lot to do with your pg.

 

1. Jason Kidd had a great 01-02; 02-03, but I do not see where he did such a tremendous job than any other great point guard in history could not duplicate. The East was at one of its weakest point in NBA history. In 2003, they were a 2nd seed with 49 wins, that's how bad the East was. In those two seasons, Kidd only shot 39% and 41% from the floor scoring a little over 13 ppg (in 02) and 18 ppg (in 03).

Here's where Isiah beats Jason Kidd, even with his pass first type game. Kidd is still behind Isiah in assist per game. I know assist is a small sample of a player's production, because it does show the facilitator factor. But, even with that Isiah has been one of the greatest facilitator as well as a good scorer and outstanding player in crunch time. Kidd did not even develop a 3 point shot or even a decent mid-range until his later years in New Jersey or in Dallas. That's another reason why he could not win more, because he was limited in what he could do offensive, he was not a scorer.

Zeke could do what Kidd did, more so than what Kidd could do scoring wise with Isiah. You can argue preference, but I see something lacking in one player that's not with another player. If you saw both players play, I do not see how this argument is troubling. One player is a facilitator with pretty good defense vs. another player who is not only facilitator, but scorer who can play defense as well.

Like I said before, the real thing that separates most of the great point guards from one another again is scoring and clutch play. Let's be honest, all of these guys are great passers or facilitators, who all are about on the same level in running offense, some a little better or worse. But, their scoring abilities tend to be all over the place, and even their offensive aggressiveness. The two best point guards, Magic and Oscar Robertson, were both the total package, they were pass first point guard for the most part, but they both could score at will and more than comfortable being the go-to option on offense, especially Oscar.

When I say clutch play or shots, it's kind self-explanatory. It can make or decrease a player's career. Look at difference between MJ and great shooting guards, like George Gervin and Pete Maravich. MJ would have probably been stuck with those type of shooting guards (but a little bit better though), if he didn't have that clutch play ability and couldn't turn up his game in the playoffs. Even as a younger player, I do not see how MJ was ever unclutch, he's numbers in the playoffs say otherwise, while the Bulls didn't lose in his earlier years, because teams shut him down.

 

You just made my case against your argument. We are arguing point guards. With the ball in the hands of John Stockton, the offense didn't break down. Because he was a floor general, pure point guard. Deadly shooting and passing like Nash, with quick hands and b-ball iq and defense (all time NBA steals leader).

 

you know i would think at some point winning championships counts especailly when its your best player. isiah was a great pg by pg standards and a true go to guy who has the rings to show.

 

i'm being 100% honest and dead serious

i don't know who is the more underated superstar, isiah or hakeem. in zeke's case, i really don't think people can fathom how a 6'1" pg could dominate an nba game

 

Can't argue that, Nash needs to be top 5.

 

Kidd is in the top 5, but not sure on the order since I can't recall how well Magic, Ishia and Stockon did. One things for sure, its stupid to put a scoring first point guard in Nash over the more balance Kidd style that plays defense and rebound.

Wow, was Stockton that good that he's so high on everyone's list? I remembered him in the two championship game against the Bulls and stunk most of the time. Hornacek had to carry his load when he wasn't producing. Sure he's good at passing but that's more of the chemistry pefected between him and Malone. Seriously did I missed something in the early 90s? I think I'd take Nash over him...better passer and more clutched.

 

He won 2 MVPs, how does that make him better than Payton, Kidd, Stockton, KJ, or Thomas?

I do not see the logic in that.

 

If you played the original Lakers v. Celtics (the grandfather of NBA Live series) on Sega Genesis, you'd know that his 360 lay up was unstoppable.

 

Because all the ones you've listed have won more MVP's??