[Doogie Wolfson] Houston has been calling a lot for Wolves #2 pick

I'm not saying Martin is untouchable but it will have to take a solid offer to deal him. Solid being established superstar level talent returning. This is not that type of deal.

 

The smartest choice, if we can't move in to the top 4, would be to trade our picks for 2012 picks.

That would be smart.

 

Oh God no. Kanter, Irving, Donatas fine. DW is a tweener and will seriously suck in the NBA.

 

For those saying Martin for pick- Remember Martin is a for sure thing in this league. Yes there is a solid backup/rotation starter in the wings in Lee that can step in and give you a quality SG, but he does not replace one of the best pure scorers in the game right now.

I can see trading Martin in a draft that brings you a player with superstar potential like a Blake Griffin or Lebron James, but trading an elite scorer like Martin for a player that might turn into the next Thabeet or even a marginal role player would be one of the most lopsided trades of all time.

In this draft more than others, that kind of trade would be even more likely. Even Enes Kanter, who I really do hope the Rockets can get, would most likely be a mid first round pick in most drafts. I see more Luis Scola here than Blake Griffin from what ive seen in the limited data and video shown.

This draft seems to have more Luis Scola's than it does Lebron James'... which isnt a bad thing because its deeper with solid role players, but little star power.

More than likely the talks are just to stir up conversation and try to get a third team involved to make a deal that leaves everyone happy. The trade could be based around pretty much anyone on the roster going to several different teams.

 

Martin should only be used in a package for an all star. He is cheap, doesnt have many years left on his contract and he will giv you 20 PPG. That is the perfect centerpiece to surround with picks, potentials, and expirings.

No one in the top 10 would want Scola anyways as they are looking to rebuild and go young too. So my proposal: T-Will+Hill+Miller+14th to Bobcats for Diop and 9th.

So we get Diop and Leonard or Biyombo.

 

agreed. is there anyone in this draft that seems a relatively sure bet to be better? (genuine question not sarcasm)

 

I agree that Lowry/Martin are being way undervalued here.

 

I would bet that with so many players going back to school that the 2012 draft will be deep with much more potential than this years draft. You already have at least 3 lottery picks from this years draft staying in for another year. Plus a few Euro's that are rumored to be dropping out for another season.

The pick the Rockets had for 2012 is now owned by New Jersey although it is lottery protected. The Knicks pick is top 5 protected I believe, but most teams wont see much value in it barring major injuries to Melo and Amare that causes them to suck.

If the Rockets continue to not make the playoffs they most likely sit with a quality pick around 10 to 14, and the Knicks pick in the mid first round. If they improve to a playoff team then they have nothing but the Knicks first rounder.

Plus keep in mind that Hill, Thabeet, Budinger, Miller, Dragic, etc. will be in the last year of their respective deals. There should be plenty of roster space for developing players.

I am all for strengthening the draft position for 2012 if their is a potential lottery pick from a potential bad team available. At the right price that is.

 

Different year, same story. But if Morey could pull something off hopefully we draft Kanter, not Williams.

 

ugh

 

If I remeber correctly cuban was also talking about the "winning time" stat and how you have to have players like that, I guess he is refering to having a combination of players you can turn on the "winning time plays" on defence and offence, Martin simply fails to show up in 4th quarters and has NO defence.

 

If this is true and we unload K-mart (plus w/e fillers and or draft picks needed to pull this off) and draft Derrick Williams then we have a great young, athletic, 2 -way players for the future. We just need to find that elusive athletic 5. Maybe next years draft?

Lowry
Lee
Derrick Williams
PPatt
INSERT STARTING 5 here

Imagine that fast break. We would see a lot of dunks this upcoming season for sure.

 

This is a topic for another thread, but despite his 4th quarter stats and defensive liabilities, his efficiency and large amounts of scoring that come with the clock stopped in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd quarters that mostly keep you in the game enought to allow you to even be in that situation to retain your lead in the 4th quarter.

Plus, there is no reason why, like Dirk, Martin cannot develop an isolation move or two for a fourth quarter half court play in time. There is no reason why his game cannot evolve with age like Dirk's has. This might be what Morey was referring to when he said that Martin is one of the few players on the roster that has potential to take a huge leap in the future.

When the game and ball movement slow down, that is when Martin becomes less effective. Thats about all you can state regarding his "win-time play."

A stat guy would most likely just tell you that the problem is he isn't getting the ball enough in crunch time, not that he is isnt effective. If there is no ball movement and the normal sets arent being run, obviously he wont be as effective. Stats show that he would be effective given his production in other situations if plays were run for him.

When Cuban was referring to this stat, he was talking about Jason Kidd, and most of his effectiveness in this statistic is coming from his ability to keep the offense running the proper sets given the slower pace of the game, effective passing to the right people, and virtually no turnovers or broken plays. Maybe what Martin needs to be effective in crunchtime is Jason Kidd.

-Next time Morey goes on air on 610, I challenge someone to call in and ask Morey how Martin rates as far as the "win-time" stat is concerned. I would love to hear his explanation or crunch time analysis when considering a player like Martin.

 

Martin not showing in 4rth quarters is just a myth. We're not talking about Cinderella here who turns from a princess into a pauper when the clock strikes 12. Martin doesn't go from uber efficient scorer into trash just because the 4rth quarter came around. He obviously needs help on offense, and fine you probably need someone to close out games, but that doesn't remove his value as one of the most efficient offensive workhorses in the L.

Also Mavs were one of the most ardent pursuers of Peja Stojavic, isn't he known as one of the L's most notorious choke artists? "Winning time" might mean more to the Mavs staff rather than just being clutch players.

 

I am all for taking chances, but trading Lowry or Martin for the #2 pick in THIS WEAK sauce draft is like paying a dollar for product and getting a quarter in value. If any of those two are involved in a trade for a higher pick, there has got to be a third team involved where we would get additional value.

 

Won't happen........in mediocrity we stay

 

Martin >>>>> Derrick Williams. At best, that guy is going to be Antwan Jamison 2.

Kanter is a big unknown. If he pans out, he'd absolutely be worth any guy on our roster. Question is how to make the trade work before July 1 when the lockout happen and CBA is null and void.

 

"Not getting a deal done" is not necessarily a BAD thing in many cases. Typically, opposing GMs ask for too damn much in return for their top-5 picks. Morey--as any wise GM would do--will turn down such counter-proposals.

Now, if an opposing GM offered a perfectly reasonable counter-proposal that landed a top-5 pick in Houston AND was for "fair market value", THEN Morey should perhaps be criticized for not pulling the trigger. However, I seriously doubt that one of those deals has ever presented itself.

But Morey will still keep plugging away, hoping for one. Just try to temper your skepticism that he is not negotiating in good faith and try not to criticize him for "not making a deal" if that deal likely involves the Rockets giving up too much.

While having solid depth behind a very, very good player is helpful in determining whether or not a team can part with that player, it does NOT dictate whether the other team is offering fair value for that player.

For instance, if we offered a sub-par package to Miami in exchange for Lebron, do you think the Heat would rationalize parting with Lebron for that sub-par package by saying, "Hey, we've got Mike Miller and James Jones to fill the void at SF! Let's do it!"

I'm not saying Martin is on Lebron's level, but it is the same issue. You don't trade the best player in the deal simply for the sake of trading him or because you have depth at that position. Depth only allows you to trade that player if you find a deal you actually LIKE.

Every single team in this draft picking outside the top-10 is thinking the exact same thing. I'm not holding my breath that anything like that will get done unless a team simply falls in love with a player available at #14 or #23 and HAS to get him, at any cost. Even then, I don't think you'll do better than a lottery-protected 2012 pick for #14. (Depending on the team offering the pick, I'd have to think long and hard about that offer.)

 

One deal that I would try to push if I was Morey would be to work a deal with Cleveland to absorb the contract of Baron Davis and give them a player like Budinger or possibly Patterson, and a pick for the 4th draft pick to take Enes Kanter. Its a toxic contract, but thats the point. If you want a high draft pick and dont want to risk giving up a player like Martin, this is another option.

Cleveland wants to rebuild and make cap space to sign quality players. Moving Baron Davis in the near future will be almost as crucial as getting draft picks especially with them drafting Irving at #1. If you can give them quality in return with the other player in the deal for the Rockets then I think you will get their attention.

I understand Scola would be the obvious player to move salary wise, but it could be easier said than done if Cleveland is in full rebuild mode. I have no idea salary wise how this could get done, but the point here is if you contact them with the notion of taking on Baron Davis for them, I think you are starting the negotiations on a positive foot and could really grab their attention.

 

I'd rather wait and make a deal like this after the CBA is done. If there's a hard cap putting the squeeze on teams, we could walk away with 2012 picks, which are pure gold.