the problem with tim in the all time pf debate is the great pfs have been scorers, and they've been better rebounders. malone and barley were much better scores. dirk is also a much better scorer. dirk definitely belongs in the all time discussion although his rebounding could be a little better. kevin garnett to me is a true tweener in the debate. duncan is just a center pure and simple its absolutely ridiculous he gets called a pf.
He had multiple game winners. clutch 4th quarter scoring and finally won a ring. Terry's increase in scoring was a product of pick and rolls off of Dirk. You are also comparing season stats against an elite defensive team. Dirk shot 17-44 in the two reg season games against the Heat. Jesus Christ, what games did you watch?
I watched Dirk shoot 10% less from the field, that's what I watched. If Dirk shot anywhere near his average, those games would've never came down to the final possession. Or if he pulled a Jason Terry and went god-mode, then it would've probably been a sweep. Look, I like Dirk and all, but let's not pretend like he did well compared to what we expect of him based on his abilities and past performances. He had a below average Finals, but he got his ring, so good for him. I think Terry was the MVP though. That dude was crapping rainbows. And I say that as somebody who absolutely hates him
Duncan Barkley Malone KG Dirk Elvin Hayes was before my time so it's hard for me to grasp where he's at. But I absolutely believe Barkley's '93 Suns would have beaten this Heat team, and several other title teams. He just ran into the buzz-saw of Jordan and Dream. If Dirk played defense, he'd be #3 easily. He's a much better go-to guy offensively than KG or Malone, IMO.
I don't think that lowering the bar for him (especially like this) is a good way to make the case that he's one of the greatest PFs of all time, IMO. Career Average: 0.476 2011 Season Average: 0.517 1st round: 0.452 2nd round: 0.574 3rd round: 0.557 Finals: 0.416
Jordans FG% went down in the finals also. None of your stats reflect the Heat's defense. To me they mostly show how incredible he was against OKC and the Lakers.
Also, don't forget that you're using an incredibly small sample size by setting expectations for his performance against the Heat in 2 regular season games. Compared to, say, his entire season, career or playoff run. What does Jordan having a good or bad finals performance have to do with this discussion? Dirk did not have a good Finals, sorry, he just didn't. The Heat's defense doesn't account for the other Mavs playing near, or above, their career/season averages. You seem to have your mind made up that Dirk can do no wrong, so more power to you.
He scored as many points in the 4th quarter as Lebron and Wade (who has this reputation of being a great closer) combined. But yes, you are right, if his teammates had not shot the ball well during the first three quarters, it would not have mattered. But if you think shooting is 90 % of his game, you underestimate his other contributions. He is one of four players in NBA history averaging over 25 points and 10 rebounds in the playoffs. He is also a much better team defender than people give him credit for.
Just for the hell of it I looked it up. Jordan's stats.... 90-91 Season AVG: 54% Finals AVG: 57.5% 91-92 Season AVG: 52% Finals AVG: 53% 92-93 Season AVG: 49.5% Finals AVG: 51% 95-96 Season AVG: 49% Finals AVG: 41% 96-97 Season AVG: 48% Finals AVG: 46% 97-98 Season AVG: 46.5% Finals AVG: 43% So 3 times Jordan shot better than his season average in the finals. 3 times he shot worse, with his worst performance being about 8% behind his season average, and the other times being very close (2-3%). So that's 1 finals out of 6 where Jordan did markedly worse than during the regular season. And it's still not as bad as Dirk's 10% drop. Not exactly the strongest example to cite in support of Dirk.
Even though you clearly agree otherwise, and I don't disagree vehemently... I do think you are focusing too much on FG % for the series. Like I said, I don't disagree entirely, but I think working agaisnt his FG% overall is the fact that he dominated the fourth quarters and hit 2 game winners. He also rebounded very well, remained clutch on free throws (best % for a series was the finals, though that is extremely nitpicking). Clearly you're right... if he played closer to average in quarters 1-3 of the games, they wouldn't have been as close, theoretically. But to say he didn't have a good Finals is a stretch. Speaking of sample sizes, 6 games is still pretty small. It's what we have to judge his finals, right, but take away Game 6 and he shot 50% on threes and 44% from the field. Taking away a complete game from an already small sample size doesn't make a lot of sense, and YES, he still shot poorly relative to the dominance we had seen... BUT I think you are definitely overstating it. He was considerably better in rounds 2 and 3... but then he was another planet better those rounds with regards to efficiency.
Sorry, if you think Dirk didn't have a good finals - you weren't watching the games. His percentage is low because of game 6. The only other game he shot poorly was game 3 (and he went 9-10 from the line that game). Dirk by himself scored as many points as Wade/Lebron combined in the fourth over the series. Think about that.
1) I've already pointed out how the game winners would be moot if Dirk had played to his potential during the rest of the series. 2) He rebounded, assisted, and turned the ball over according to his average. 3) The majority of Dirk's game is efficient scoring, which he struggled with. That's why I'm focusing on FG/3P%. 4) To say he had a good Finals is a stretch when you look at A) what his teammates did and B) what he had done up to this point.
