Come on now - you can't make that physical freak argument given how few true big men are left in the game compared to the 80s/90s. There were many legit 6'10"-7' bigs in the league back then NOT like there are now. Maybe the players now are a little faster/more athletic but those guys were bigger, stronger, and meaner - and they would try to hurt you if you came in the paint. You had to be tough. Lebron's freak athleticism as a 6'8" 270lb forward is one thing in this day and age where Dwight is literally the biggest guy in the league not sitting on the sideline with his foot in a boot(Yao)....but the power advantage Lebron has to finish at the rim is not the same if most teams had a 7ft 250+ shot blocker at the rim AND a 6'9" or taller PF who could do the same. mid80s/mid90s "big" men: Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Mutumbo, David Robinson(talk about a freak), Divac, Sabonis, Smits, Eaton, McHale, Parish, Thorpe, Sampson, Shaq, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Kareem, Sikma, Laimbeer, Daugherty, Terry Cummings, James Donaldson, Ho Grant, Kevin Duckworth, Kevin Willis(freak)...and we aren't even talking about the guys who were big and would just foul the hell out of anyone coming into the paint. Guys like John Salley, Blue Edwards, Cartwright, Big Country, etc. Quit making stuff up to suit your point...
uhh... he dominated the first 3 rounds of the playoffs. wade was nowhere to be found for most of the chicago series and the heat still won 4-1. lebron is playing bad right now in the past 2 games. he has to pick it up. but the MJ comparisons need to stop. no one is going to overtake that man as the GOAT for the forseeable future.
...and I'll add that part of the phenomenon of physical freaks in the league doesn't reflect a stronger talent pool, but rather a shift in teams looking to draft those types of players based on athletic tests that weren't as prevalent in the old days(where they drafted for size, and college success). Of course that's starting to shift again now that teams are increasingly relying on metrics to temper overenthusiastic geeking out of athletic stats.
People really need to stop comparing lebron to mj. Lebron is not all hype, he is an incredible player, maybe when all is said and done, one of the best all time. That being said, he is not even close to jordan, can u even think of jordan scoring 8 points in a finals game, passing the ball like it was on fire. On his first nba finals jordan averaged , 31.2 PPG, 6.6 RPG, and 11.4 APG. Lebron was swept by the spurs , and he averaged 22 PPG, 7 RPG, and 6.8 APG. This year, he is supposed to be on his prime and he s been awfull, with averages of : 17.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.3 apg. So plz, dont put mj on the same sentence as lebron. Lebron is really great on his own, but he dosent belong... at least not yet, maybe later on his career. Pippen is so jealous of jordan he kept saying stupid things.
People in computer chairs looking at stats and measurements forget that only half of the game is physical, the other half is mental. this past season I saw courtside during the Miami-Houston home game, and I was disgusted by the way Lebron was warming up. Throwing the ball off the rim, faking dunk attempts, laughing, and acting just plain obnoxious. Now I ask, can anyone imagine Jordan doing any of those things? No, he would tell the kids to knock it off and that they have work to do and games to win. Jordan had a passion to win. I just don't see it in Lebron. As a basketball fan, I hope he proves me wrong so I can witness something truly great, again.
The fundamental problem in this comparison lies in what people consider the greatest basketball player of all time. Do you mean pure skill or are you including other factors, like leadership, taking clutch shots, etc. I don't think anyone can doubt that both have immense skills (regardless of how LeBron has played in this series). I will say this though...Jordan played with a competitiveness that was unmatched. That man hated losing possibly more than any other basketball player I have ever seen play the game. So if you're asking if I had to choose one to build a team around, it'd still be Jordan.
Lebron is so skilled and physically talented that he can have anyone's game. He can put in some work and get MJ's post up game, he can be a PG like magic, he can pretty much emulate anyone with the exception of 7 footers and super quick PGs. With all that skill and talent, Lebron chose to model his game after: Scottie Pippen. He's like a better version of Pippen right now, he's a fantastic defender, he's dishing and facilitating, he has games where he takes over. But, he seems to also have inherited some of Pippen's mindset. Scottie was never comfortable being 'the man', maybe Lebron has the same problem. We might have to just think of Lebron as a superior version of Scottie Pippen.
Right, and he got swept. Isn't the good stats on a bad team argument the same thing people have used aganst LeBron for years?
First off, half of the guys on your list hardly physically imposing. Divac, Sabonis, Smits, Sampson, Sikma, Kareem (late 80s Kareem) and Daugherty were all finesse bigs and we have plenty of those in the league today. Other guys like McHale, Parish, Mutumbo, Mourning, Thorpe, Duckworth, Grant, and Willis are available in various forms as well (for intance, Duncan is a better McHale, Kenyon Martin plays a lot like Thorpe/Grant, and so on). And 2000-2003 Shaq was better and more physically imposing than 90s Shaq. Where the Jordan era bigs differed was by having more elite ones-- guys like Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson. But on average, I would guess that the typical big today is bigger than the typical big then, just because the typical player is bigger due to a much greater emphasis on physical training. This has been going on since the mid-80s. Guards in particular are much bigger and stronger than they were back in the 80s/90s, and these are the players Jordan had to face night in and out. Nowadays even small guards are 200+ lbs (guys like Eric Gordon, Raymond Felton, Jason Kidd, etc). Then you have freaks like Wade pushing 220 and we're not even talking about the 230+ lb swingmen that would be guarding MJ if he played now. I don't doubt that prime MJ would dominate this era (since he's better than prime Wade, who also dominates), but people make it like he would average 50 points. He was not THAT much better than Wade is now. You can believe what you want; I saw the guy play live on dozens of occasions and in my book he wasn't even the best of that era (that would be Magic).
LOL @ listing guys like Eric Gordon and Raymond Felton to show how tough the league is based on their weight... today's guards can ingest all the HGH they want but when the lights turn on and it's game time they're playing in a watered down, weakened version of the game. Anyone who lived in the 90s is a witness to that. Claims like "watered down because of all the expansion" and "defensive rules were much stricter then" only reinforce that you're reaching and reaching deep into the realms of BS. Zone d's might have been illegal but defenders could get all up in their man's grill and body them up in ways they can't dream of today. Watch video's of guys like Ron Harper and Derrick mcKey defending. And as the Sonics showed against Hakeem, when an individual started to dominate, zone d's began to illegally appear and in the interest of a free flowing game the refs wouldn't call it. It was a much more physical league back in the 90s. The LeBron MJ argument shouldn't even pop up until LeBron has 5 rings.
<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZPGDfjPjdWg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Great, your that guy. I won't even bother...
Yeah, it really was. You're just like the Kobe homers who scream 81!!!! when presented with an argument they don't like. <iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6XKymYcIaFU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> This is a classic great Jordan game smack in the middle of the 90s against one of the most physical imposing teams. You can watch the whole thing. Notice how Jordan is being covered by 6'3" John Starks. I'm sorry, that Knicks team was not nearly as good defensively as the top defensive teams like the Heat and Bulls are today. Go back further (this guy has tons of games) to the 80s and it gets much worse. The 63 pt Finals game was against the Celtics, one of the top defenses at the time, and the guys look like emaciated players compared to those today. Now don't get me wrong-- I consider the actual basketball being played then (not in the 90s) to be the most superior product that NBA has put out, but don't try to convince anyone that these guys were more physical then they are now. They weren't pansies flopping all over the court like in today's game, but the per-possession contact wasn't the same as it is now-- and that's just because players today are much bigger and stronger.
Sheer natural ability/athleticism their are people "better" than Jordan (or at the worst equal): Dominique Wilkins, Dr. J and Lebron are the first to enter my mind. All these players are missing whatever that drive/chip on the shoulder that Jordan had it year in and year out, which is why they don't compare to Jordan. It is the same argument when looking at Tmac or Kobe, if you take away the drive, almost everyone on a pure athlete POV would take Tmac hands down, but when you factor in what makes them great, Tmac would never be picked.
I gotta disagree here. Jordan was one of the most athletic players in the NBA, right on par with Drexler, Wilkins, and Dr. J (less than LeBron though). He had tremendous hops, coordination, and oven mitts for hands. the competitive drive may have separated him but the main thing was that he was on a great team with a great coach. Who knows if Jordan had switched places with 'Nique, or if TMac/VC had switched with Kobe. I think we overrate the guys who won in this league because they were marketed and were always in the spotlight. A lot of great players have come through the NBA and so much of their legacy has been lost because they were on crappy teams.
Wade was better against Boston, about on par with Philly, but was crappy against Chicago. The finals are what matter most though.
