This thread (and many, many thanks, OP -- it is really nice work and so fun to read through) is the penultimate example of what a troll can do when you let him. What is it about human nature where we all go to the lowest, stupident denominator and reply to that instead of all the other more interesting options? Fascinating. Anyway, this thread should be about what we all have seen time and time again: Hakeem's greatness, his global underrated stock in NBA lore, and the obvious performance enhancing drugs consumed by John Flopton. How else you can explain this? And I'm only partly kidding. This is amazingly similar to Barry Bonds performance in his 30's, defying every major league average for human beings. See the purple line here: Barry turned 30 in 1994. He and Stockton's curves both start heading downward, like normal human beings, at about age 29, but then they each come back up awkwardly, and like very few (if any) other players in their leagues. Looks like Flopton started juicing (and I don't mean carrots) at about age 32. Barry waited a little longer.
Its not like Stockton retained his stamina and quickness from his younger days all the way late into his playing career. His minutes went down, and the Jazz went from being an up-and-down transition team to a meticulous half-court execution team. Stockton's PER was consistent, but he played shorter stints and didn't have to run up and down as much. His durability was pretty amazing, though.
I am not trying to weasel out of anything. Again as I said in my original post I stated the 93-94 team was a great team led by a GREAT player. My entire point with the following statement: There are many years Hakeem couldn't get out of the 1st round. If he was so great why was that the case. Is that no one player is that great. Look at Jordan he didn't get to the finals until he got the players around him. He lost to the magic without getting rodman.
Does anyone argue that Hakeem had trash around him in the championship years? He had a solid supporting cast in that 93-94 season. A number of very good players, but other than him no great players. Its rare for a team with only 1 all-star caliber player to win a championship.
It appears you forgot the other two words in your screen name. As for Kareem, two things factored equally into his long career: He was remarkably durable and kept injury-free for most of the time, and it really benefited him to play with such a stellar cast in his last few years. He was able to let his younger Lakers teammates keep attention off of him for the most part.
This is why Dream's numbers always declined in the playoffs, he totally lacked that killer instinct. Olajwon Regular Season - PPG 21.8, RBG, 11.1, BLK 3.1, AST 2.5, STL 1.7, FG% .512, PER 23.6 Playoffs - PPG 25.9, RBG 11.2, BLK 3.25, AST 3.2, STL 1.68, FG% .528, PER 25.7 Jordan Reg Season - PPG 30.1, RBG 6.2, BLK .8, AST 5.3, STL 2.3, FG% .497, PER 27.9 Playoffs - PPG 33.4, RBG 6.4, BLK .88, AST 5.7, STL 2.1, FG% .487, PER 28.6 Bird Reg Season - PPG 24.3, RBG 10, BLK .8, AST 6.3, STL 1.7, FG% .496, PER 23.5 Playoffs - PPG 23.8, RBG 10.3, BLK .88, AST 6.5, STL 1.8, FG% .472, PER 21.4 Magic Reg Season - PPG 19.5, RBG 7.2, BLK .4, AST 11.2, STL 1.9, FG% .520, PER 24.1 Playoffs - PPG 19.5, RBG 7.7, BLK .33, AST 12.3, STL 1.88, FG% .506, PER 22.9 Shaq Reg Season - PPG 23.7, RBG 10.9, BLK 2.3, AST 2.5, STL .6, FG% .582, PER 26.4 Reg Season - PPG 24.3, RBG 11.6, BLK 2.1, AST 2.7, STL .54, FG% .563, PER 26.1
There were no other great players, but I don't think I have seen that number of clutch players on a single team. Mad max could suck the entire game and go crazy in the 4th. Big Shot, Sam, ellie, max, even kenny they all would seem to show up at the end.
When Dream was drafted he stepped on the court as the second best center in the game behind only Moses Malone. He proved to be better than Kareem his rookie year and surpassed Moses a couple of years later. For 13 seasons Hakeem was the best or second best center in the game. For about 10 or 11 seasons he was indisputably the best center in the game...period. For a few years he was clearly the best player in the game...period. When Hakeem stepped on the court you always knew he was the best center on the floor regardless if the opponent was Kareem, Moses, Ewing, Robinson, Parish, Shaquille, Morning or Matumbo. Dream had prime years and ultra-prime years until the last few seasons.
don't forget that the Rockets 86 team got destroyed by Ralph's injury and Wiggins/Lloyd got banned for coke. Let's not forget Jordan had issues passing The Celtics dynasty and the Bad Boy Pistons. The Rockets were eliminated by Magic's Laker's twice post Ralph. It's not like we got beat the Utah Jazz with Boozer.
Leave it to Stockton to ruin anything. I guess "what" doesn't remember Akeem. I won't bore you with name dropping, but I know for a fact that Olajuwon came into the league as a thug, a partier, and a jerk with a serious mean streak. He shed all those negative characteristics, but he never lost the competitive spirit, which though filled with honor, was always edged with that same young mean streak. They didn't call him the Nigerian Nightmare because he had cool footwork. smh
This is a good point. I guess no matter how good you are, playing in the league takes some getting used to. Someone like LBJ who's played in the league directly will probably be better after 5 years than someone who played in college for 4 years first then went to his rookie season. Regarding Hakeem, its not that he peaked or anything, its just that his team for most of his tenure was utter garbage. Yeah, yeah, cue the Tinman meltdown (Maxmax shut down MJ!?!?!?!), but like Yao and Tmac (well with Tmac half of that's on him), hakeem was a victim of circumstances. His backcourt players all became crackheads, and his twin tower partner became injured. In a lot of ways, his career reminds me of Elton brand, a steady 20-10 guy who was basically forgotten because he played for the Clips. If Hakeem hadn't won those two rings he probably won't even be in the top 10 Cs outside of Houston, just like Moses Malone (and Malone won a ring in Philly, I think). He also had the misfortune of playing in the MJ era, MJ hype was ridiculous he made everybody on that generation look like 2nd tier stars.
Yep. They had an oppurtunity to hit clutch shots because Hakeem demanded double and triple teams. Open shot after open shot.
great thread, to those idiots on espn who said hakeem only came on late in his career in the all time great centers thread. dude is the most underrated player in the history of the game
