Wow. I usually see that 1994 Bulls' Eastern Conference Semi Finals run exaggerated into an Eastern Conference Finals run. This is the first time I've seen it referred to as a "finals berth". I didn't side step anything. If you recall, this discussion was originally about contemporaries during Jordan's prime (late 80's/early 90's). At that time, Drexler was considered to be near Jordan's level. Jordan didn't really start distancing himself until he started winning titles. There are different ways to mentor. In Pippen's early years, Jordan was already an elite player and super competitive (as was Pippen). Phil Jackson would always put them on opposing teams in practices. Pippen improved his game by competing against elite competition every day. It's not comparable. There were teams in the early 90's (Rockets/Spurs) with the talent to beat the Bulls. No team today has the kind of talent that Miami has. Remember, James, Wade, and Bosh are all in their primes. Which other teams have prime talent that even comes close to that trio? Why does everyone forget that as soon as Jordan left to play baseball, the Bulls imported the best European player (Kukoc) at the time? Also, don't forget that the Bulls' roster was completely revamped while Jordan played baseball. Out of both 3peat rosters, only Jordan and Pippen played on both. And as I stated earlier, Jordan in his 2nd 3peat was past his prime.
But this was 1992. MJ had already been in the league for eight years. That's more than half of his career. You're acting as if the fact that Clyde wasn't held up to that level after 1992 means that he wasn't considered to be in MJ's class for the better part of the previous decade.
one of his teammates was shaq, arguably a top 3 most dominant player of all time and one with pau gasol, and a DEEP team. lebron has wade and bosh, and really nothing else. lebron has had to play 44 minutes in the playoffs, along with anchoring the defense. if you take into account all he has to do, outside of the 09 playoff run with the cavs, he's doing just as much as ever.
Its also funny how much ink has been given to downgrade Kobe's rings when in fact he had less help than Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, and nearly every other legend outside of Hakeem. Now Lebron apologists suddenly have a problem with it? LOL
Again, the focus of this thread was Lebron. I didn't start the poll asking about Wade or Bosh. I, and a lot of people, are right to hold Lebron to a higher standard than Wade or Bosh or Ray Allen or KG or Pierce. If Wade, Bosh, and Anthony played together, it wouldn't have been as big of an issue to me. Right of Ascension supposedly goes Dr. J ---> Jordan ---> Kobe ---> Lebron? The guy took avg players and carried them on his back to the NBA finals in 2007. I sat there with amazement thinking, wow he is just one superstar away from building a dynasty (I almost knew that it wouldn't be in Cleveland though). The point is that Lebron winning the finals this year will not be the crowning achievement in his career that it should have been. Other than the stupid sideline dances he's done (crab dribble just made me lol), I really liked the guy as a player on and off the court. Fine, he can go ahead and win a championship with 2 other superstars. Just don't go around (speaking mostly to media here) touting him as the next prototypical SG/SF NBA phenom given legendary status (a la Magic, Bird, etc). Put him in one class below with Clyde Drexler, Ray Allen, Scottie Pippen, etc.
Shaq and who else? Who has ever been Kobe's 2nd best title winning teammate? Glen Rice? Robert Horry? Lamar Odom? Do you really think those guys compare to Chris Bosh?
a guy shaq who puts up 30 and 15 on 60% shooting throughout the playoffs? and draws triple teams basically 90% of the game? yea, shaq was like 2 all-stars.
You may have just shot yourself in the foot with this logic. So LeBron being equal, his team is suddenly winning everything easily. The only explanation is that he now has a significantly better team around him. NBA fans are so hopelessly obsessed with superstardom. Teams win rings.
and what is Wade.... chop liver? LOL. Isn't he the best SG in the league? People were so insecure about Kobe getting rings early in his career that for whatever reason they stopped counting how much "help" a star player had after one teammate. What about the other 10 guys? Does it make any sense whatsoever to ignore them?
a dominant inside player is much more valuable than a dominant wing player (and wade is not on the level of prime shaq in terms of dominance--you saw his series vs the bulls). look stars win in this L. obviously wade and bosh have helped lebron tremendously as they helped alleviate some of the offensive responsibilities. but make no mistake, if lebron had a prime shaq, teams wouldn't be able to build a "wall" as it has been said many times to neutralize lebron and force him to take contested jumpers. people forget that until the 02-03 season, kobe ALWAYS had 1-on-1 coverage. he was a great 1-on-1 player who gets to play 1-on-1 all day, including in the playoffs. playing with wade doesn't take the double teams away from lebron at all as he still gets more than his share of them. you put shaq and take away wade/bosh, this heat team would be even more lethal.
He produced identical stats and quit on his team when the play wasn't called for him. Drexler is closer to being consider in Jordan's range than Pippen is in his.
Playing next to the best player in basketball is confusing, especially when that dude is a center and there really aren't many other centers left? And those teams had plenty of vets that knew how to win. That takes care of the first 3 rings. As far as the last two, yes I say your team is stacked when you have 3 legit 7 footers that can score and most teams don't have 1.
Why should they put him below with dudes that don't have his numbers and that haven't led their teams to a title? Most of those wings that you mentioned won with tremendous help. Once LeBron got tremendous help, he seems to be winning just like they did. He certainly doesn't have any more help than those other wings.
Based on what? How many championship duos are there in NBA history? Kobe is the only guy in NBA history to show an ability to win multiple titles with only 1 other HOF teammate. I'm supposed to assume LeBron would have been able to win titles because he has made it to the finals with the best SG in the league AND the equivalent to Pau Gasol.
1) Lamar Odom isn't 7 foot tall 2) Refresh your memory. Bynum won both titles coming off a recent injury. He literally averaged 7 pts a game in the playoffs. People despise Kobe so much they really delude themselves into believing bizarre things.
Dude, stop trying to shortchange the talent Kobe has won with over the past 3 seasons. He has been playing with the best frontcourt in basketball and another multi-skilled 7 footer coming off the bench. Most teams don't have bigs these days. Our starting center is freaking 6-6!! It's no coincidence that LA lost when one of those highly efficient bigs started to play like garbage.
LA didn't need his scoring. They needed his defense and rebounding. And LA has been winning with their size and Kobe's ability to close. It's the size that keeps folks out the lane and controls both ends of the court. Ok, he isn't 7 foot. Just a 6-10 dude with a hell of a wingspan that can play 3 positions...off the bench. Stop trying to shortchange Kobe's supporting cast. The only team that has had more talent over the past 3 seasons is arguably Boston. Kobe isn't winning with less. Just like other champions, his team has been arguably the most talented one in basketball.
Your midget center averaged more pts a game in the playoffs than Bynum for those two titles. 1st three peat - Focus on Shaq, ignore the other 10 players 2nd back to back- Focus on "best frontcourt", ignore the worst backcourt and the fact that Bynum was a non factor
