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Taking Risk: It's Time

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by CXbby, May 25, 2011.

  1. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    I have a feeling this post is going to go a little bit everywhere, so bear with me. The central theme that I want to discuss is the concept of risk and how different teams in different situations should treat it differently.

    For contending teams, risk should be a dirty word. The chance of winning a championship, a true chance, is so preciously ephemeral that you have to take the most advantage of it while that window is still open. There is no time to be taking risks and potentially wasting your golden opportunity when you are already so close.

    As much as people hated it, that is the reason why we traded the 8th pick for Shane Battier. Those people might feel redeem nowadays where we would certainly be better off with guys we could have drafted like Rudy Gay. They would also be missing the point. In 2007 with a healthy Yao and Tmac this was a contending team. Without a sure thing in the draft by the time we were picking, it was a risk. A risk that this team could not afford to take given our fleeting window of opportunity. Instead, Shane Battier was low risk and low reward, the safer bet. Whether that specific trade was right or wrong, given that we did not end up winning a championship, is all hindsight. The idea behind it, a contending team avoiding risk, was correct. Since then we have done similar trades in the same situation, like the trades that brought us Artest. Those are as safe a bet as you can make.

    However, for rebuilding teams, risk should be their top priority. This is because the system that the NBA operates under rewards reckless(yes reckless) risk-taking for non-contending teams like no other. And by reckless risk-taking I mean high risk high reward. This is because your bet either pans out brilliantly, or you crash and burn and the system rewards you with a high draft pick. As long as your management team is competent in identifying talent in the draft, it is a win/win situation.

    I see a lot of good posters who want to hang on to our veterans instead of trading them for high picks in a weak draft because either that is too risky, or we are not getting enough value in return. I think this is the point that they are missing. You cannot view risk in a vacuum. A contending team would be crazy to trade a bonafide contributor like Kevin Martin for inknown commodities in the draft. Not smart! However, for a rebuilding team not only is it worth the risk, it might be worth it even if we are not getting full value in return. Because the value of a better pick the following year might be worth more.

    We hear talks now about the team trying to trade up in the draft. What makes this year different than the last 2 years where we have failed? The difference is Yao. Like it or not, the team was still betting on Yao until 5 games into last season. That might seem crazy to some people, but to me it was the only bet they could make. With a healthy Yao they were a contending team. Yes that might sound like a paradox to some people who view a healthy Yao like some mythical unicorn, but there was a chance. It might have been the slimmest of chances, but even a 1% chance meant a shot at contending. Meanwhile not betting on Yao meant a 0% chance at contending. 1% > 0%, it is as simple as that. And as precious of a chance at contending is, any chance is worth it. Besides, what exactly has betting on Yao cost us? A one year delay in rebuilding? Big whoop.

    With that said, they were not going to put all their eggs in the Yao basket even if they were still betting on him. Everyone knew the chances were slim, which is where "rebuilding on the fly" came from. We had contingencies and going young and attempting to trade up in the draft were part of them. However, since we were still trying to contend with Yao, we were not willing to take the risks of a fully rebuilding team. I believe that is what kept us from trading up on those few occasions. The difference this year is Yao is now out of the picture, and so is contending.

    We have come full circle from the days of the Battier trade. We are now in full rebuild mode and risk should no longer hold us back. In fact, for this team in this situation, risk is what we should embrace.
     
    #1 CXbby, May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
    6 people like this.
  2. jump shooter

    jump shooter Member

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    Nice post. We really have come full circle with the Battier for Thabeet and a distant first round draft pick trade at the deadline. The rockets are finally taking risks and I like that.
     
  3. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    I hate teams that waste their time and money on something that won't get rings. We aren't even close to being contenders and just getting to the playoffs isn't worth adding more borderline all-stars.

    I to agree we need to take the risks to get younger, cheaper and more athletic.
     
  4. RocketsMAN!

    RocketsMAN! Member

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    agree
     
  5. Plowman

    Plowman Member

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    You've summed up my feelings ....very nicely.

    Why is it so hard for folks to understand the cyclical nature of an NBA franchise ... the need to feed a window when we're in the mix ...making a move for a known commodity, without downside risk that fills a need...putting your team in position to win a title or two. The Battier move was the right one under the circumstances ....Now, it's time to rebuild and with that comes risk. That said, we couldn't be in better hands.
     
    #5 Plowman, May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  6. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    Just because it is time to take risks doesn't mean you shouldn't measure each risk against other risks. You even said "reckless" risk taking.

    But a GM has to take the best risk, not just the first one that comes along. If this is a weak draft, why force it, and start wasting your assets. If you haphazardly spend all your assets and get little in return, you'll suck. I suppose you'll say that that will get you into the top 3 picks quicker, so why not take that risk.

    Sounds like you are describing a game of poker where the person who takes the most risks always wins, because even if he sucks at the game and all his chips/assets get spent with little return, when he runs out of chips/assets he gets to flip a coin for the best hand/player on the table/in the draft.

    That's such a weird way of thinking. Surely Morey doesn't not play poker that way.
     
  7. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    Indeed I said "reckless", and I described what I meant by it: high risk high reward. That doesn't mean you cannot measure your risks against others. If there is something else that is even riskier with even higher reward then by all means. The point of being "reckless" is looking only at the upside, and ignoring the potential downside. Surely you understood this, since:

    is exactly what I mean. BTW taking the biggest risk possible doesn't have to be "haphazardly". It can still be calculated.

    This is not what I am describing at all. A poker player who plays recklessly is not rewarded with anything. If he gets called down then it is at BEST a coin flip where he is risking his entire bankroll. Most likely it is much worse than a coin flip since only decent hands are calling you. And when you lose, you lose. How is that win/win? Meanwhile, if you crap out on your risk-taking as a rebuilding team, you are rewarded with a high lotto pick. A high lotto pick is NOTHING like a coin flip in a poker game. A high lotto pick in of itself is one of the most valuable assets you can acquire, and that is completely ignoring who you eventually end up picking. A high lotto pick is worth more than Kevin Martin. A high lotto pick is worth more than Luis Scola. This risk-less proposition is the whole premise behind why we should be taking as much risk as possible.

    Surely you understand this, heypartner. In fact you understood it so well that you were the one scoffing at the mere suggestion of trading Martin for a top 5 pick when I brought it up weeks ago. To you, a top 5 pick was that valuable compared to Martin, and it would be laughable for us to even try. So why in the world are you now comparing it to a crapshoot all in bet by some luckbox donk at the poker table?
     
    #7 CXbby, May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  8. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

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    You underestimate how bad it is to have have a no-talent horrible team and how unlikely it is to go from that to contending for a championship.
     
  9. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    The reason the odds are low going from a horrible team to one contending for a championship is the difficulty in building a team. Acquiring a franchise player is only the first step and guarantees you nothing. Guys like Kevin Garnett and Tracy Mcgrady went nowhere without a team around them. That is the difficult part and why it is unlikely.

    However, Morey has proven that that is his strong suit. When it comes to building a team he can practically turn water into wine. Vspan into Scola. Rafer into Lowry. Landry into Martin. Those are miracles for most other GMs. And when you put them together sheer wizardry. The problem is we are missing the first step, the franchise player to put those guys around. No amount of wizardry will get you there unless you are a no-talent horrible team to begin with. Once you give that first step to Morey, he has proven that he can handle the rest of the process better than what makes it "unlikely" for your typical scenario with your typical GM.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

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    Yes, if the Rockets get a franchise player, I believe Morey has shown an ability to do a good job getting complementary pieces.

    Yes, it makes sense to take a risk in obtaining a franchise player, or a potential franchise player. And you know what?

    This is exactly what the Rockets have been trying to do: trading either for an established star (Melo) or a high pick with high ceiling (the Rubio trade talk that R. Justice mentioned). As reported by Justice, they'll gladly suffer through a losing season or two if they had to trade some of their vets for a high pick and wait for the kid to grow up.

    What they won't do is to throw away their talent without getting fair value in return just to return the team to essentially the status of an expansion team. This is because that "value" (like a Rubio-type draft pick) is needed when you are trying to grow your young (and likely bad team).
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    I don't think anyone is suggesting we throw away talent. I am suggesting we take risk. High risk high reward, not high risk no reward. And with high risk comes the possibility of not getting fair value in return, not certainty. However, this possibility is alleviated by the high pick you should receive if it does not pan out. Again, the premise of the thread.

    I believe our past attempts at trading for superstars was with contention in mind. To pair him with Yao. Therefore getting fair value back in return is at a high priority, since if we give up too much, we end up like the NY Knicks, still going nowhere with Yao's window closing. I think that is less of a priority now for a rebuilding team. Our goal should be to get a franchise player, at what ever the cost. If we give up the boat to trade up this year, we could gamble on someone who might turn into a franchise player. And if he does not pan out, that lost value from the guys we traded would be made up from the high pick we would receive next year, with another shot at a franchise player. Again, that is the premise of the thread, whatever risk we seemingly take is in reality risk-less taking the NBA's lotto system into account.
     
  12. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

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    Nice post!

    Weak or not, I hope our eyes are wide open in spotting potential help in the upcoming draft. Lots of guys that end up being stars go in the middle late 1st round. or even the 2nd round.

    I agree with you and disagree with those that want to hang onto our vets. The only guys I would hang on to are the ones that have:

    1) room to grow (upside)
    2) 2 way players
    3) guys projected to peak in the 3-5 year window (or later)

    Im not not saying take a dime on a dollar for them just to get them off the team, but shop them vigorously and take the right deal.
     
  13. Raven

    Raven Member

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    The Rockets should not go all in, not in a weak draft. I'd rather trade Luis and K-Mart for picks in 2012 or 2013, non lottery protected, of course.
     
  14. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    Value is value. For Martin and Scola their value isn't going up, maybe it goes down if they get injured. If it takes Martin + picks to get a top 4 pick in this draft, that same value will get you a similar return in 2012 or 2013, nothing more. That means the 10th pick in 2012 or whatever it comes out to. All that accomplishes is delaying rebuilding by a year.
     
  15. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    It is pretty obvious that is the way the organization is going with them getting rid of Adelman, Battier and bringing in TWill and Thabeet.

    In general, I agree, trade some of the players that will be in decline in 3 or 4 years for guys with upside.....and realize that some of them are going to be misses.....probably the majority....

    Gonna be a rough ride.

    DD
     
  16. Spacemoth

    Spacemoth Member

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    I agree to every point in this thread except the part where we jump into the trade KMart logic.

    This to me is what's wrong with overthinking the idea that we need to get rid of our vets. Martin is not old yet. He still has I would guess 2-3 years of prime prime game before he dips down into the Ray Allen range for the 5 subsequent years following those 2-3. That's 8 more years of someone who is a VALUABLE PIECE TO A CHAMPIONSHIP. Right now no one can convince me that Martin isn't the 3rd best offensive SG behind Wade and Kobe. That to me is a commodity you covet and one you hold onto for the moment that you get a proper big man to allow for an off-ball threat like Martin to really blossom.

    I would be open to trading anyone on our team to get a guy like Kanter or Valanciunas, EXCEPT Lowry and Martin. You can't just go willy nilly dealing away everything because it takes forever to re-acquire those pieces that are absolutely essential to a championship contender. Just because we don't have a #1 doesn't mean you trade away the #2 (Martin) and #3 (Lowry) to get him. Now definitely you've got to give something to get something, so I'm in favor of trading everything from #4 (Scola) and down to do so. Yes it would be painful to lose Patterson since he really does have a nice 15yr career ahead of him. But that's where you start talking about taking chances.

    At a certain point, you can't "rob Peter to pay Paul" or else you're just "treading water". I'm fine with losing, but I don't want to give up Martin and Lowry expressly for that purpose. Tons of teams in the NBA are able to find ways to lose with stars on their roster: Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, Danny Granger etc are all adept at doing this. In my opinion, I don't think we're being unreasonable either, putting it all out on the table except for two prized commodities which we're calling untouchable.
     
  17. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Teams need successful veterans along with the coaching staff to teach the younger players how to be successful.

    So you must be completely over the moon wrt TWill?
     
  18. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    An example of what I am talking about is trading Ray Allen in his prime for the 5th pick and drafting Jeff Green. That is a high risk high reward move that would have been foolish for a contender to make. But for a rebuilding team it made sense. Was it fair value? Is Jeff Green ever going to be better than Ray Allen in his prime? Hell, is Jeff Green better than Ray Allen today? Jeff Green could have been a franchise player and "fair value", but with high risk comes the possibility of being wrong. The morale of the story is, for a rebuilding team who is willing to take risks, when you are wrong you get rewarded with Russell Westbrook.
     
    #18 CXbby, May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  19. RyanB

    RyanB Member

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    we're 16 years away from our last champ
    so let's take big risksssss:grin:
     
  20. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    I think where we disagree is here. If anything, Morey has shown he can willy and nilly and re-acquire those pieces with ease. Think about how we got those "untouchable" pieces you are talking about in the first place.
     

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