It's the Yanks....of course they do. To be fair, Myers was fantastic early on and solid his last two starts. Yesterday was more on the bullpen then anything else, if Barmus hadn't botched the double play ball Myers has a shutout in the 7th. He did have four crappy starts stuck in the middle there but if he can continue to regroup then Yanks sound like the right partner. That said, I think he would need to revert back to Myers of last year to be worth a top prospect. Wandy maybe the guy to fetch something serious, he has been great in May and looks to have it locked in.
Of course they do. They've gotten the best player in trade arguably every time the two teams have done deals going back almost a decade. Phillies receive: Wagner Astros: three schlubs Phillies receive: Brad Lidge (perfect save season on the way to a WS win) Astros: Bourn and two schlubs Phillies receive: Oswalt AND cash Astros: Wallace (indirectly), Happ and minor leaguers. We're the NL version of Oakland/Minnesota. Farm club to a better team. Oakland/Minne --> NYY, Boston Houston --> Philadelphia The difference being we're not small market, we're just incredibly poorly run. Good teams like the Phillies leverage a good farm system to improve the major league team. Only crappy teams like the Astros leverage a mediocre big league club to improve a terrible farm system.
Major and xcrunner51, It's a player development thing to me. Hunter's made adjustments but is also entering his prime. He's filled out more and will benefit from consistent protection in the 3 hole. At least as important is the marriage of his experience with his talent....putting it together...realizing his potential...yeah, that same one he flashed his rookie year. We had high expectations before that, but ....after..sheesh.. Among other things, Hunter is more likely to make a pitcher pay for a mistake now .....handling Uncle Charlie better is another.
Two things. 1) Hunter's stats don't appear to trend upwards since his rookie season. There's nothing that suggests he'll make a big jump in development. He is what he is, a solidly above average player. 2) Even if Hunter did continue to improve, the rest of the team is awful. So we'd end up paying a lot of money in his arbitration years when the team isn't close to contention. Not the worst thing in the world, but if you could get a major league-ready high-ceiling prospect (with 6 years of team control) you'd have to take it. The soonest we're competing is 2013, Hunter will be a FA by then. They weren't robbed if that's what you mean. But I think any outsider would make those trades over and over again for the phillies.
The only trade noted above that I still hate is the Wagner one. Lidge had one GREAT season but since has been below average and injuried while Oswalt is clearly not the same guy. Out of those deals we got a starting pitcher, starting first baseman, starting centerfielder and possibly future SS....not horrible at all. If you are comparing us to Oakland and Minnesota...Id be giddy if true. Twins are always in the playoff hunt and Oakland has the best pitching staff in the AL. They aren't fam teams...they are two of the smartest franchises in the game.
I'd listen to the offers as no player on the team should be untradeable, but I wouldn't be jumping out of my seat to unload Pence. He is an above average player in the league who is a fan favorite (doesn't matter in terms of wins, but when you're bad, you need someone like Pence who fans cling to). He is relatively inexpensive and he is one of the few current Astros young enough and good enough to maybe be around once the Astros are contending again.
Exactly. He's not headed to HOF status like Bagwell/Biggio... but could you imagine if Drayton unloaded them when he bought the team for prospects?
You nailed it, that's the exact context I was comparing them to the Oakland/Minne Apparently I need to dumb down the metaphor to level of comparing the Astros to the Pirates, a poorly run team that trades its best players (e.g. Jason Bay/Nate Mcclouth) off to better teams. I never said we need to dump Hunter but fact is fact, he's one of the best if not the best trade chip we have. He's got 2 years of club control left and he's a solid above average player. That could bring back a strong haul from the right team. At the risk of Moreying Hunter's contributions, he may be worth more playing for someone else (like Shane).
The only issue with dealing Pence and/or Bourn and/or Myers and/or Wandy is that if you think they're bad now..... I mean, yes - building for the future should absolutely, positively be their tip-top priority. But you still have to try and put a semblance of a decent ML team on the field. This team is *years* away from being competitive; trade away your best players and it is going to be *ugly* 'round here; yes, uglier than it is now. And if you bust on those trades............ Having said that, I'd certainly be open to at least listening to offers.
This was the same argument for hanging onto Berkman (which resulted in getting a whole lot less when he finally declined) and Oswalt. The reality is that sucky is sucky. No one's going to care if the team wins 50 games or 70 games - the team is bad in either case. The true baseball fans will keep watching, while the ones that tend to follow the team when it wins won't. And really, the last 2 months of last season - when Berkman and Oswalt were gone - were much more fun for those true baseball fans to see what the new guys would bring to the table. I'm not saying you have to trade Penece - he's a reasonable guy to sign to a reasonable long-term deal because he is fairly consistent - but the fact that the team will suck more should not be a factor: all that should matter is what you are offered in return. The reality is the team has a choice between sucking for a long time or really sucking for a bit shorter time. Neither is good, but the quicker you get out of this hole, the quicker the fans will come back.
I should say, this was also the argument against trading Brett Myers last year ("we need a rotation!") and Wandy to a lesser extent. All it does is delay the inevitable.
If your going to be bad then lets be BAD. No one is going to games anyway, to hell with ticket sold because we all know half of those don't show. Situation is a bit different then last year because we don't need to move Pence or Bourn now but Myers or Wandy really need to go asap and sell high.
Totally agree. I haven't watched a whole game in a year or two so the fact that they'd be even worse without Pence, Myers, and Rodriguez is totally irreleveant. In fact I'd be more interested in watching top prospects growing and improving at the MLB level than the crap they have out there now... Jason Michaels, Angel Sanchez, Clint Barmes, etc.
Oswalt not the same guy? Have you seen his stats since joining Philly? As far as Hunter, I'd echo the sentiment that I'd like them to be open toffers. There's no need to sell him for 50 cents on the dollars, but I'd sell him for 100 cents on the dollar if the returning players are prospects that will start entering their primes around 2015. Right now, with the holes on the mlb roster and in the upper minors, I think all moves should be with an eye on 2014 or so. If you told me today that by 2013 or 2014 the astros would be in an organizational position that the royals are in today, i'd be ecstatic. That would require some home runs in upcoming drafts and a better showing by our current young prospects (it hasn't be a great year so far), but that should be the aim, imo.
The Astros need to trade pence now if they want to be contenders in the near future. The fact is that they have very little talent in the upper minor league levels. Hunter plays in the outfield which is arguably where we have the most depth right now: Jason Bourgois, JD Martinez, Jacob Goebbert, Colin Delome, Jack Shuck are players in the upper levels who could jump in there. Another problem that we have is the lack of pitching depth in the minors. Every level has maybe one above average starting pitcher right now. For a team to be successful, they have to develop lots of homegrown pitchers to keep under team control for a long time. This is why I like a Hunter Pence deal because we have the potential to get some frontline pitching prospects. If the Phillies offer a package starting with Brody Colvin and/or Jarred Cosart, this might get interesting.
I just want to defend OAK and Minny real quick. The only reason neither of those teams has won the title this decade is their own stupidity. The Twins play the Yankees and fall apart mentally. Base running errors, boneheaded decisions (pulling Santana in a game against the Yankees early to save him to come back on short rest) etc. The A's have made so many baserunning errors it's ridiculous. Giambi not sliding on the Jeter flip play at home, Eric Byrnes (I think it was him) stopping in the basepaths assuming interference would be called and getting called out, etc. The A's were in a position where they were the better team twice and should have made the WS. 2001 and 2004(might be off a year on the 04 series against the Sox.)
